Co-Creating Collective Liberation with Kvon Tucker | S02 E01

Welcome to When Kings Unite, Season 2, where we explore all the different strains of masculinity as medicine and the nuanced, evolving journey of kingship. We've got a special guest king joining, joining us today. But before we get to that, I want to address the baby elephant in the room. Chris, you're here stepping in for Smith. How are you?

Freddie, Wes, good to see you. Yeah, I'm stepping in for Smith. I'm, uh, in San Diego right now. We moved down here for, um, for about 3 months or so for my treatment. I just finished my first week of treatment and I'm feeling Feeling okay. So I know, uh, Smit is feeling under the weather today and, uh, put off the call and I said, you know what, I'm feeling good enough to step in and pinch hit. So here I am. Glad to be here.

Yeah.

It's being kind of a baby, right? Like you have cancer and you're coming, but he's like just a little food poisoning.

Food poisoning. And he's just like, ah, well, we've always, we've always known, especially the line of work that he's in teaching Krav Maga, how much of a wuss he is. Right? So, it's just kind of one more proof point.

Exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, in addition to loosening things up with our format a bit since last season, we're also excited to invite some really dope and interesting individuals onto our show to participate in some of these amazing conversations that we've been having. So, Without further ado, I would like to introduce to you, uh, to, to you and to our viewers, uh, a, a really close— who, who— someone who has become a very close friend and, and dear brother to me over the last few years. Um, so Kayvon and I first met, I believe we connected through LinkedIn. Maybe 2 or 3 years ago. And man, it was one of those love at first sight things. Like, I just, I fell in love instantly with this man. And, you know, he'll talk to us in a bit about his company, Consciously. And I was fortunate enough to have been invited by him to join Consciously. Last year. And I mean, the last year being a part of the organization has been just a joy to witness the growth and just all of the amazing things that we're up to in the world and in personal development and coaching and creating. Like, we're co-creating together. So I'm really excited to have this conversation with this brother, with this king.

Thank you.

Our guest king, our first guest king on When Kings Unite. So without further ado, I would love to introduce to you the CEO of Consciously, Mr. Kayvon Tucker.

Thank you. Thank you, Freddie.

Yeah, what an honor. And I was sharing before we started recording that I heard the first episode and I was like, Freddie, you got to let me be a part of this. What you all are doing and have done is just truly special. I've never seen anything quite like it. And I think it's part of the reason why you probably all created it, because you saw an opportunity, a gap in the world in terms of conversations and men and how they relate to one another and showcasing that. I was like, look, this is just absolutely beautiful.

Yeah.

So, I'm deeply honored, grateful to be able to be in conversation with you all and to share this space. And so, I'm just looking forward to seeing where this conversation goes. And trusting that this will be the beginning of many conversations similar to like when you and I met Freddie. I met you, similar feeling. Love at first sight, love at first meeting. It was like, this brother's special. And when I find people that I feel that aligned to, my motto is like, just keep talking. And that's what we've done. So here we are, still talking.

Here we are.

Here we are. Still in conversation.

Yeah. Yeah.

Anyone else want to say anything to, to Kayvon before we start?

I'm just glad to have you here. Excuse me. Glad to have you here, Kayvon. Um, I've, I've, you've been talked about a lot. Freddie speaks of you highly and, uh, to get a chance to put a face to the name and, and to, to sit in conversation with you, it's, it's seriously a joy and a privilege and an honor for me as well. And I must say, um, You and I immediately have a direct through line, and that's from the moment we met Dr. Freddy. We just like love this man. He's, and I think I would imagine that happens a lot with Dr. Freddy. He's, he just brings that loving energy into the world and he just radiates it and he accepts it back.

And, uh, oh, stop it some more.

I only speak the truth.

Yeah, I could, uh, could praise Freddie a bit more, um, but, uh, just, uh, turning it towards you, Kayvon, just, uh, yeah, Freddie's obviously spoken really highly of you, but just experiencing you now, even in these few minutes, you just have like a very clean, open energy. It just feels like, yeah, just feels like, like I'm at like a spa or something. It feels just like nice to be with you.

I receive that.

I receive that.

Thank you. Thank you.

And he's in Costa Rica, so you're not far off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're giving retreat vibes over here, you know.

Awesome.

Love it.

Yeah. So, so let's, let's dive in. Um, the, the first question that I have for you, Kayvon, it's a, it's a, it's a very simple but challenging question. Who is Kayvon Tucker?

Damn, this is about what I expected, so I appreciate that.

Kayvon Tucker.

Kayvon Tucker. You know, first thing that comes to me is I'm love, I'm joy, I am perseverance, I am courageous. I'm also a father, a husband. I'm someone who wants to see the world heal, who wants to see the world— I don't want to say righted, but I want to see people live the lives that they want to be living. I want to see people feel liberated. So I am, I also identify as an abolitionist. Um, yeah, and I'm a, I'm a lover.

Yeah. Thank, thank you so much for that beautiful introduction. I really appreciate how you introduced yourself, not by the titles or the roles that we all play in life, but by who you really are, by your essence. Thank you for bringing that. Can you, can you expand a little bit when you say an abolitionist? What do you mean? Yeah.

I believe a part of why I was put on this planet, why I was incarnated into this body, is to support people to liberate themselves in as many ways as they would like and feel like they want to. So whether it's feeling more free physically, spiritually, financially. I believe a big part of my purpose is to support liberation. And so in that, I identify as an abolitionist.

Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for asking.

Yeah, I really appreciate the emphasis on liberation and freedom. I think that's One of the many core values of Consciously that really made Consciously a hell yes for me when you gave the invitation to join. Because freedom and liberation is probably my top core value. And specifically, my flavor is, I call it Unmitigated, uninterrupted, unapologetic freedom. So, so yeah, I appreciate you highlighting that.

It's big freedom, man. That's big freedom.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, well, speaking of consciously, like, you, you've, you've introduced yourself. You've told us who Kayvon Tucker is. Tell us a little bit more about Consciously and what Consciously is?

Yeah. It's funny because Consciously is changing, right? And so it's kind of difficult for me when I think about trying to define like what is Consciously. The best phrase I have right now is something that I've been working on for, I don't know, the last couple months is I'm seeing Consciously as a community-based corporation. That is centered on co-creating a new Earth and co-creating collective liberation for all. You know, what we do is we offer coaching, counseling, consulting as services, and we'll be offering more. But the big game that we're playing, I believe, is supporting liberation. And so we're, you know, coaching, counseling, consulting is, those are tools. to support the vision and the mission that we have in terms of co-creating collective liberation. It was born out of conversations with my wife. My wife's a licensed clinical social worker. When I first went through coaching training, I came home and I'm like, babe, I'm a coach. I didn't know it, but I'm a coach. I've been a coach my whole life, and I want to make this a bigger part of my life and my career. But I didn't know what to do. And so, you know, we decided that between like my leadership development work that I had been doing and her becoming a licensed clinical social worker, like there was this connection and the connection or the overlap was self-awareness, you know? And so this is how we came up with this idea of Consciously and realizing that when you learn more about yourself, you not only become a more effective leader, You also heal. All right. So that's where consciously kind of sits at the center of that. And then as we've grown, it's kind of grown out of focusing on helping people learn more about themselves and knowing their values and knowing their purpose and fulfilling their purpose to, oh, when you, when you learn more about who you really are, you become more free. Right. And that's, that's the ultimate goal for us. So now consciousness, Consciously is in service of liberation, not just leadership development and, and healing. It's in service of all of that is in service of liberation.

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. How long have you been leading consciously?

Ah, well, it's existed in different forms for about 10 years. Yeah. When we first started it, I came home from this coaching training and I was so excited. Talked to my wife a couple days later. We landed on a company name called Conscious Helpers and started in LegalZoom. This is 2015. Got LegalZoom, like made it a real thing. We had no clients, right? I didn't have any clients. She didn't have any clients. We're like, this is gonna be a thing. And then over the course of time, You know, started building my practice. She started building hers. We shifted from conscious helpers to consciously, and just through our conversations, realizing that leading, living, loving consciously is really what, what we want to support. I gave myself the title of CEO and started leading, right? And, you know, my wife is my co-founder. And so the two of us have been leading consciously. I want to say we renamed in 2017, and then this concept of the community that we're building, the community-based corporation, really came to fruition about 3 years ago. So right around the time that I met Freddie, we were really getting clear on what we wanted this thing to be. And again, it's being co-created, so it's not a firm thing. It's not concrete. But it's, it's taking shape. And so, yeah, I wanna say, I mean, technically 2015, but really it's been about 3, 4 years where I've been actively like serving a role of CEO with other people involved in, in the organization.

Yeah. Versa, really just such a beautiful vision and like just the way you talk about it, it's like the love and intention is infused in your being and it's so clear, like, that you've lived into that in this work. And second, I have to ask, what is it like founding and leading a company with your wife?

It's super fun, Wes. No, it's actually, you know, so I'll answer your question, but I had a mentor When I told, like, this was years ago, I was working at Amazon and told my mentor at the time, like, oh yeah, like my wife and I are starting and building a business together. And he kind of like frowned on that and was like, you might want to have more boundaries in your marriage. And I was like, you know, okay, I received that. I'll hold that. And, you know, what I've now come to realize is that, you know, some people worry about starting a business with their spouse. Like, oh, I'm not sure how that's going to work. But the reality is, if you're married, you are in business with each other. Like, you have a legal contract with one another. And so in that way, it's not all that different. I mean, there have been challenges with clarifying roles, right? But when you think about it, it's not all that different from marriage either, right? So, you know, we, we have learned how to get really clear on roles and expectations. You know, all the things that I've learned working in corporate America, we like pull into our co-founding and co-running of Consciously. And so, you know, long story short, Wes, I'd say it has been challenging. And it has been rewarding and it has supported our growth in, in ways in which we never imagined, right? It has forced us to have a lot of conversations, um, challenging conversations that have, have helped us grow as we've moved through it. You know, like, she's an amazing woman. I believe we have an amazing marriage. I think it's really special. And co-leading, co-founding consciously has only made our marriage stronger, right? Or it's given us opportunities to make our marriage stronger. Lots of couple counseling to support, but we do that work gladly because she's like me. We're both very kind of growth-oriented. And so we moved to Costa Rica with our daughter. So we don't shy away from challenges because we know the goodness that, that comes out of that.

What, um, I'm, I'm curious, how often, uh, do you do performance reviews and how does that typically go?

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, well, the funny thing is, is I love that. You know, the funny thing is, is, um, so every Monday we have, um, we call our family business meeting. So it's family business. And what we do is we sit down with each other over, usually like over breakfast. It's like super casual. Sit down over breakfast and we start with gratitude for one another. Like, hey, like what's something you're grateful for in this last week? Okay. And then I'll share my gratitude, she'll share hers. And then we talk about parenting. Like, okay, how are we doing as parents? Like, what do we need to check in on? How's Ayana doing? Like, how am I doing as a father? How are you doing as a wife? We have a little conversation around that. And then we get to business. What's going on? Like, what are some of the family things that we need to tend to? Oh, it's like, we gotta call a plumber. Oh, we gotta take care of this light. We gotta fix this thing. And then we get to consciously. So what feels important for us to do consciously? What needs tending to? And so in that way, we have performance reviews every week. But we do it in our way. We do it in our own kind of original way. And that's our way of like staying in touch with how we are doing and how our marriage is doing and how our business is doing.

Love that. Thanks for sharing. I think, you know, I've worked, I worked 30 years in the corporate world before I, you know, kind of stepped out on my own about a year ago. And it seemed like it was never a, the, it was never enough of a cadence. of performance-related conversations in the corporate world, right? Many companies do it. I would say most, probably the majority do it once a year. I mean, come on, if you're having performance conversations once a year, you might as well not even have them. Um, and you know, I've worked for some companies that did them semi-annually or quarterly, but every week, I love that. It's, it really gives you a chance to check in, make sure you're aligned, make sure everyone is clear on what expectations are, what's coming down the pike. I really love that. Thanks for sharing.

Yeah.

Well, that's one of the things that came out of couples counseling. It's like, you, you two should probably talk more often. Like, we talk a lot, but it's like, it would be good for us to talk more often about the things that we're trying to lead together. Um, you know, number one being our, our marriage, you know? Yeah.

The good thing is it's so natural for us as men to open up and communicate on a frequent and deep basis.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All the time. All the time.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, in addition to being a devoted partner to Jess—

hi, Jess—

you've also mentioned quite a few times being a devoted father. Tell me more about how that has been for you.

It's— It's interesting as you ask that, 'cause it's a big deal for me. It's become a bigger deal than I ever actually expected it to. And as I say that, I believe that part of that is because my father wasn't in my life and I had these really big expectations for the kind of father I was gonna be. But being Ayana's father is the greatest leadership role that I've ever served. You know? And I say being Jess's husband is right behind, but being Ayana's father is— it's the greatest gift. It's the greatest gift to be able to support her, watch her grow. She, as a little human being, has given me so much. There are these clichés about what happens when people become fathers, and many of them have lined up for me. It's like she came into my life and It was like a switch, a couple switches, actually multiple switches in my being and my spirit were just like turned on. And so for that, she's changed my life in so many ways. I'm a different leader, different husband, different kind of CEO than I can imagine what kind of CEO I would be if I wasn't Ayana's dad first. So it's been a lot. It's been a lot. I mean, she's a big part of the reason why we're here in Costa Rica. You know, she's a huge inspiration for us making this big change in our lives. And she gave us the courage to make the change in service of her and her future and creating the opportunity for us to be the kind of parents that we wanted to be. You know, we always thought about like, maybe we'll move and leave the country. And then Ayana came and was like, actually, We should do that. We should do that and do it for her. So she's a big part of the reason why we're here and we'll be here for a while.

Yeah, I think what's really beautiful to me right now is like, I feel like people often think you have to make all these trade-offs that like, oh, I can have a great career or a great marriage or be a great parent and like, Yeah, it's so beautiful how you're showing and living in that, like, oh, you can have it all. You can have this kind of harmony of all of these different worlds that are really just one world, and it's all supporting each other in this really harmonious way.

Yeah, thanks for that. As CEO of Consciously, like the work that we do, I am also a practitioner, you know? And so this is what I want for other people. I want people to be able to find a way to live the lives of their dreams, like to express their purpose on full tilt in as many ways as possible. You know, she's a big part of the reason why I quit my full-time job. You know, it's like, Speaking of fatherhood, I don't know if I've shared this with you, Freddie, but, you know, I always had this idea, and Justin and I talked about this, like, I just had this idea that, like, I can't be a full-time employee, or I can't be a full-time dad, or I can't be the dad with a full-time job, like, not the kind of dad that I really wanted to be and have a full-time job. So I just, I didn't have a model, right? I didn't see other— men who had full-time jobs who were also the kind of father that I wanted to be. I'm sure they exist. I just didn't see them. I don't know any of them. And so for that, I was like, well, whenever we decide to have a kid, like, I can't work in corporate America. It's just not gonna work. And then Ayana came and I still had a full-time job. And it's like, shit, I gotta do something. You know, and by the grace of God, I had these opportunities come to me while I was on paternity leave. And then within a year's time, it, it, those opportunities made my full-time job redundant. Like I no longer needed it financially. And so it was like literally like, thank you. Um, and then 6 months after that, we moved to Costa Rica. So, so much, so much of my life today has been shaped by me being the kind of father that I wanna be.

So beautiful.

Yeah. Thanks for that. I'll, I'll, can I ask you an impossible question?

Sure, sure.

Thank you. I'll just preface it by saying it's an impossible question. I know it is.

Sure.

I'm a father of 2. And so I totally resonate with, with your share around how life-changing it is and what a Unimaginable how unimaginable the gifts are when they come into your life. And I'm curious if you had to kind of narrow it down to like, what is the biggest blessing? What is the, the, just the hugest gift that being father to Ayana has given you? So I told you it was an impossible question.

Yeah. That's a great, that's a great question. Um, the biggest gift. I mean, it's, it's an impossible question, right? Because there's like so many things coming up for me. And, you know, we're all, we're all coaches, right? And we, we get to watch people grow. We support their growth. But there's nothing like watching your kid grow. It's, it, It actually makes me emotional just thinking about it. It's just so beautiful and so special watching your kid grow, watching your kid change, watching your kid do things they couldn't do and seeing their excitement around it and being there, being there and watching. Hey, sometimes it can get a little annoying, like, hey, Dad, look at this. It's like, OK, babe, that's great. But for the most part, it's just absolutely— it's It's just joy. It's just so much joy watching them grow. Like, it— being Anna's dad has like opened up so much for me that I, I've now become like very weepy just thinking about all the growth that I've been able to witness. And so as I talk more about it, I feel pretty firm. Like, watching her grow is, is the, the greatest gift. And that's, you know, also because of my inclination and I, I love to support people's growth, but. Supporting her growth is, is ultimate. It's ultimate.

Yeah. Thanks. I, I don't know if this analogy will resonate, um, but as coaches, it's kind of like we adopt shelter dogs. Like there's this whole history that they come into our lives with that we don't know. We have to unpack it. We have to try to understand it and learn about it.

Yeah.

But when, when you have, you know, your child is like, from birth. Like there's, it's clean slate, fully clean slate. And then to, to witness all the different stages of growth. Um, yeah, it's, uh, really, really, really powerful. Um, how would you say that you have grown from being her father?

How much time we have?

Um, that's as much as you need.

Um, Chris, for the big questions. How have I grown? It's like, how have I not grown? Yeah, 'cause I could just go on. You know, there's like my— I'll call it, let's call it leadership, right? So I, in my work, I talk about leadership of self, leadership of home, leadership of community, leadership of at work, and then leadership in the world. And so All facets of leadership for me have been bolstered, strengthened, encouraged because of Ayana's presence in my life. The biggest thing that jumps out to me is I just, I feel so much more emboldened as a leader. It's like I, so I have a, what I call a people pleaser saboteur, right? So, this part of me that does all sorts of things because I want to be liked and I fear not being liked. And that's been a big challenge for me as a leader in sharing my truth, speaking, giving feedback, call it whatever you want to call it, making decisions, moving my work forward. But something about Ayana being in my life and wanting to do whatever I can to make the world a better place, to add more love, to add more healing, it's made my people pleaser so unimportant. It's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Like, I got work to do for her, right? Like, I gotta do this, and I'm doing a lot of this for her because I just, I want to do everything that I can to To make this world a more positive, welcoming environment for her. Um, and so it's in some ways like my fears, so many ways my fears just have gotten smaller because of her presence in my life. And that has, you know, it's like moving to, like quitting my job, moving to Costa Rica, really embracing being CEO of Consciously, like all of this stuff. Is inspired by her as, you know, me wanting to also be a model for her, right? And it's like when I think about where, where the world is, what's going on in the world, all the, all the pain, all the hurt, you know, I want to feel good about answering the question like, when all this stuff was happening, Dad, like, what did you do? All right. What did you do when, when people were in so much pain? Right. And I want to feel good about that answer. And I do, as, as we are doing this, like, I, I feel good about how I'm spending my time and what I, how I am contributing to the world.

So beautiful to hear, like, Yeah, I just got really moved by that, being able to answer that question, like, what did I do? How did I show up? And just speaking of all the pain and suffering that the world is going through and exposed to on a day-to-day basis, I personally have always wanted to be a father because to me it was like It was always like, what could possibly be more meaningful and beautiful than raising a child and just making them a fucking— the most loved, powerful human I could possibly make them, or at least provide for them to— the environment for them to grow into. But It kind of— I empathize with it, and it also makes me sad when people, so many people nowadays are like, the world is so fucked. Like, how could I think about bringing a child into this terrible world with so many issues? And perhaps another impossible question for you, but like, as a father, as a leader, like, What do you have to say to, to those people?

I think they're missing the opportunity, right? Like all the, all the stuff that's going on in the world presents opportunity, right? Like healing doesn't happen without hurt, right? And in so many ways, like this is, it's for us, like people like us are here to support That gives us purpose, right? Fortunately and unfortunately. And so there's so much, there's so much opportunity, right? Like my daughter was born in the middle of the pandemic. Like she, we got locked down in March, right? And we got pregnant in May. So we got right to work. And, you know, Jess and I had had a lot of conversations, like, you know, we were in the Bay Area at the time and we had a lot of conversations like, okay, like, do we wanna do this? Do we really wanna do this? Do we really want to bring a kid into the world when everyone thinks that it's like the end of the world? And what we landed on was like, well, like, this will be good. There can only be good that comes out of you and I becoming parents, right? And so, yes, there will be challenges for Ayana being raised during this time, but she has our support. Right? She has our love and, you know, she has our marriage to hold her up and we have a strong marriage. So like, well, why not? Why wouldn't we? Right? And there's so many people who are so hurt and they're also having kids, you know? And so, and I'm a child of 2 very, very hurt people. And look at me, you know? And so, um, so it can't all be all that bad, right? And so what, what if, what if 2 people who have dedicated their lives to learning and healing and growing had a child and, and just focused on supporting them to become the biggest, best, fullest version of themselves? Like, Like, who will she become? I don't know, but she's gonna be special, right? And she's gonna add good to this world. I'm 100% sure of that. How much, how big, I have no idea, but she's gonna add good to this world because we're her parents, right? And I feel very, very confident about that.

Yeah.

So yeah, I think people are missing the opportunity to add some good to the world.

Yeah. Yeah. I, um, oh, go ahead. Can I comment on that, Freddie? Please. Um, yeah, I, uh, I really resonate with that. My, my, uh, I have 2 children. My oldest one, we found out we were pregnant with our first child in the weeks after 9/11. Right. So similar but different in terms of the, the context of the world and what sort of a world are we bringing a child into?

Yeah.

And pretty quickly, I didn't have words for it at the time. This was, you know, long before I started any sort of my own personal development work. But I innately, innately were able to navigate to a place of recognizing that that was choosing from a place of fear, choosing to operate and stand from a place of fear when there's also the choice to stand and operate from a place of love. And that was, you know, that was the choice that we made. Now granted, it was like we were already pregnant, so it was like, okay. It wasn't like we were choosing whether or not to have, you know, to get pregnant. But yeah, it was that really deeply resonates. I, it, and that kind of mindset and seeing the world change right before your eyes. Right. And then also wearing that mantle of father and leader and husband from, you know, choosing from a place of love. Totally get that.

Yeah.

This may be a slightly more possible question for you to answer.

Well, how, well, first, how am I doing with answering these impossible questions? Oh, you're, you're killing it.

Impossibly well.

Yeah.

Great.

Great.

Killing it.

Great.

Um, Any siblings for Ayanna anytime soon?

Oh man, this, you asked me this live.

No, no, no prep.

It was, it was talking about we had a strong marriage and now, now Jess is gonna— let me, let me—

Let me just know what Monday morning, uh, family business meeting's gonna be about, right?

Be honest. So my theme for this year is tell the truth. Um, I would love a second child. My wife is not excited about another one. Um, I, I feel in my bones, um, that I'm supposed to father a boy. I, I feel like I'm supposed to raise a young man. And there's something in me that it's like a message story I'm telling myself that that's a part of my mission on this planet is to raise a young man. Now, who knows if that were to happen? I don't, you know, if we had another child and turned out to be a girl, it'd be totally fine. But there is some part of me that believes that. And my wife's not ready yet. All right. And I totally get that. You know, again, through lots of couples counseling, I finally came around. And stopped pestering her about it. So it's a TBD. It's a TBD. You know, obviously you all know that the journey from conception to birth is very different for men and women, and even postpartum is very different. I'm an exceptionally supportive husband, and then there are things that I just— Can't do. There are burdens I cannot bear. And so for that, I really, I do respect, I have come around, like I really respect her and her choice because it's wellness-oriented. I, you know, I want to make sure my wife is well and feels good and feels ready to become a mom. You know, and she felt that way the first time around. She's not there yet right now. All right. And, you know, the door's not completely closed for the two of us. So we, I would love another one. Um, my wife said, eh, right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, thank you. Thank you for your vulnerability there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I want to pivot a little bit, uh, but still in the same vein, because one of the things that you and I have, uh, talked about previously is how Like the distinction between being a father and fathering. Like, one does not necessarily have to be a father to father. And, you know, one of the things that we've talked about at length in previous episodes of this podcast is around masculinity. Performative masculinity, the wounded masculine, the divine masculine. So what are some things that you would like to share about just fathering in general and fathering? Like you said, you have the desire at some point in the future to father a young boy. What can you speak to right now in regards to fathering?

Yeah.

Men fathering men. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, this idea first kind of came into my awareness, came into my consciousness from a client. You know, it's like we learn a lot from our clients. And we were having a conversation and they were like, you know, they're basically like, this is really good. And I was like, okay, well, what do you mean? They're like, I feel like You're re-fathering me. And I was like, say more. And so we ended up getting into a conversation around it. And then I began to realize that, that I believe, at least for men, or I'd say for men, like that's a part of what we do as coaches. And this is a part of what we do as partners, right? We re-parent each other, you know, in the healing process. It's re— there's re-parenting.

going on.

So there's remothering or refathering. And what I'm realizing is that we do this with the other men around us, right? Intentionally, consciously, or unconsciously. I talked to my boys about it. You know, it's like not all of them have biological children, but we have all practiced fathering each other through— even through adolescence, before we even knew what good fathering was, because most of us grew up without our dads. We were fathering each other. We were providing the masculine support and energy so that we could become the men that we are today, right? And in so many ways that I see that as fathering. And so I think it's just a part of the process, you know, call it, it's the label that you can apply to the healing that occurs from one's masculine, healed masculine presence. Yeah, and it's a gift. It's a gift to do. And it's like what I'm realizing is, you know, I have an opportunity to do it on purpose, right? Before it's been unconscious, and now I'm like, oh, like this is something that I offer the world. And this is something that I offer the people around me. Something I offer the men and something I offer the women. A lot of women need refathering as well.

Yeah.

Love that.

Absolutely. Yeah. You talked a lot about, you know, refathering others and even growing up with your friend group kind of standing in, in that father role for each other. I'm curious what sort of self-fathering you've taken on, you know, talking about how you grew up without having a father present. in your life. And I'm just curious if you can speak a little bit to what that process has been like for you. Um, you know, maybe, maybe how you've gone about it and, and how you've grown from, from fathering little Kayvon.

Yeah. You know, thanks for that question. Um, you know, the first thing that comes up for me, and I, I believe the, the refathering for myself actually started in psychotherapy with my therapist and in me being in his presence and seeing how he was, and he's a dad as well. Um, but he's also healed, healed masculine. And so, um, seeing how he has been with me helped me see how I could be with myself, you know, present and nonjudgmental and, um, consistent and steady, you know, and like these, these qualities, um, that I didn't have a lot of, a lot of experience with. It's like, again, I got it from other men around me and even some women, but not with that kind of like potency that a good therapist can provide. And so that is something that I've been practicing and being with myself. Like, perseverance is one of my top values, right? And I think perseverance is is, is kind of in some ways born out of masculinity. It is the willingness to, to stay, you know, it is that steadiness, that consistency. And that, that to me is, is a reflection of masculine presence. Um, and that is something that I practice and something that I, that I offer. It's like perseverance is what helps my marriage. Um, and so yeah, there's, there's, there's those kinds of things that that I think when it comes to masculine presence and self, self-fathering, um, that come up for me.

Thank you. Beautiful.

Yeah. Um, I, I had the honor and the pleasure of, uh, uh, being invited last year to through Consciously to work with PAC, the Pro Athlete Community. And, man, that— I have to say, that was a dream.

Yeah.

That was a dream manifested. Like, I remember when I was in my coach training, 7 years ago now, I declared that one day I would work with professional athletes. And so, to have that experience come to fruition last year, and, you know, we had a time in Miami, for sure. And there was fathering that was occurring even in that scenario. So, do you want to speak into that at all?

Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, what a time. What a beautiful, beautiful time. And that, you know, it's like you all, I know, do men's work for yourselves and support others to do it. And I see that as fathering. And I think that's— I don't know if PAC would define the work that we were doing as men's work, but in so many ways it was in moments and pockets.

Yeah.

Right? In certain conversations. And You know, seeing, seeing men like who, who grew up without their fathers like me begin to open up and appreciate the, the presence and the non-judgment, non-judgmental presence, um, the support, the love, the brotherhood. Like that, similar to you, it's a life-changing experience. You know, I got to go to a few of them, but Miami was, Miami was special, um, in, in so many ways.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, when I, and I, and I, my wife and I talk about this, like I've become, Pam, I don't do men's work and I don't run fathering programs. It's something that I'm imagining I will do in the future because I see it as like so critically important. Like I look at the world and I see many of the problems, issues, challenges that we face as human beings as reflections and extensions of either lack of or poor fathering, right? Like, fatherlessness, I think, is one of the biggest epidemics in the world, and it creates all sorts of hurt, or people end up hurt because of fatherlessness. And so there's What becoming Ayana's father has done for me is like made that even more important and made it, made it even more intentional to show up in that kind of way for people. Um, because there's, there's so much, so much work to do. There's so much healing to do.

I just feel like you, that, yeah. Sorry, Freddie. I, Kayvon, I would argue that, um, that you do men's work in, in your own way, maybe not labeled as such or formatted as such. But showing up as the leader that you are, as the healed, in the healed masculine that you carry every day, uh, you're doing men's work.

Can I ask y'all a question? And anyone, anyone is—

Wait, this is not comfortable.

I mean, I'm sitting here elaborating, uh, on fathering for me, but I'm curious about anyone who's open to, to to answering like, what is, what does fathering mean to you? Or what does fathering mean to you?

Yeah.

I can go first.

Oh yeah, go ahead, Wes.

You're an actual father, so I'm gonna defer to you.

Well, simply having fathered children doesn't, as we've discussed, doesn't necessarily mean, you know, that one is a father. Um, for me it was, um, definitely an evolution. I'm frankly a little envious, Kayvon, of How and when your daughter showed up in your life and how you've already, you've already well in the process of doing your work. Um, my children showed up when I was a very different man, um, when they came on the scene and I was frankly growing along with them and learning along with them. I learned a lot from them. Um, and I would say specifically about my shadow. I thought I was a patient man until I had kids. Oh boy. And then I learned just how short my patience is or can be. They're such a powerful reflection back. They're a powerful mirror. And sometimes I didn't like what I saw, to be frank. So I, to me, fathering is, it's really about embodying That, that which is divine inside of us. And men can, women, women can do it. Like, it doesn't matter what gender we are, what our bodies are. But simply embodying our divinity as leader, as love, as power, as warrior, as, you know, Inventor, creator, right? All of these different attributes of that which is divine to me is what true fathering looks like. Aspirational, yes, like very highly aspirational. And you know, no one ever gets it right 100% of the time. You know, we're just imperfect in this human form, but that's what fathering means to me. Thank you for asking.

Wes, you're free to share.

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that, Chris. And to me, I think I'm— I've actually named my breakthrough for this year of my coaching program, and it's— I've been calling it my Divine Father breakthrough. And what that means to me is to be able to hold everything in my life gracefully, harmoniously, knowing that I am gonna get fucking tested every day, um, even before I have kids. And right now I feel like I'm in my training to become a A divine father, like to be able to embody that sacred container to always be accepting and of my children and however they, they show up, like whoever they are meant to be, regardless of what I want them to be. To be able to lay the foundation, to set them up and then let go. Like, I don't even— I don't even have kids yet, and that's fucking giving me anxiety. Like, the— like, truly, like, yeah, like giving them the fertile ground and then letting the fuck go and trusting in them, trusting in the universe, trusting in myself and my partner.

I don't know if I have too much more to contribute to what has already been said around fathering, uh, 'cause it's all been amazing. Um, you know, we've talked previously a lot about the, the divine masculine, and we, and we defined it. And one of the attributes of divine masculinity is, was self-initiated. And so when I think of fathering, I see— I have this picture in my head of like a yin-yang symbol and the masculine and the feminine sort of interwoven and interconnected. And just to kind of like tie in also, The sentiment that we shared at the very beginning around freedom and liberation. And so when I think of fathering, I would say it's sort of like an interweaving of, and an embodiment, like I love the word embodiment.

Yeah.

Of the more of the divine masculine flavor and texture of liberation. And how, how can I, as, as a father, whether I'm, whether I'm a father of a child or if I'm fathering another adult, how can I, you know, how can I, uh, Demonstrate, be an example, teach, um, another individual, another soul, how they can be free and how they can express that yin-yang within themselves of their, their masculine and their feminine. Uh, Such that, such that, such that they can move and navigate through the world free and, and liberated in whatever form they choose that is self-initiated for themselves.

Thank you for that. Um, you said you didn't have quite, quite much to say, but that was, um, quite powerful, my man. You know, it, it bring— what it brings up for me is, um, There's 2 things. One of the— and this is something I think I was inspired by, I don't know, I want to say Black Panther or Lion King or some Disney film. But I feel I see one of my jobs as Ayana's father is to prepare her for the day when I'm no longer here. And, like, ensure that she is well-prepared for that day. And I think it's the same for everybody in my life, right? As a role as a father, it's like, I want to do what I can to support you to be free, to do your thing, to live the life that you want. And so what you just brought up for me is a greater awareness around, like, why liberation has become so important to me.

Yeah.

Um, around the same time that I became a father, you know, um, the other thing that it brought up for me was like, my wife and I are very different. We, we have different, uh, traumas, different backgrounds, and we're, we're also very different parents. And I, I see one of my jobs as a father, uh, I just, that's just a natural role. I don't know. Or it's, it might be more to do with like my background. But I see a part of my job is to support Ayana to take courageous jumps, to make risks, calculated risks, to jump off the sofa, but make sure you know your surroundings. If you're going to jump, check your surroundings. Okay, have you looked? But jump, jump, have fun. And in that way, it feels very similar to— to the liberation, to the courage. I see fathering, fatherhood as providing that kind of steady, sturdy foundation so people can jump off into the lives that they want to take, those courageous leaps, whatever they happen to be, in service of them being who they want to be and creating the freedom that they want for themselves. I feel like you have to have sturdy foundation to make solid, solid leaps. Um, and I, I see that's a part of my job as a, as a father, as a coach, as a leader, as a husband. Um, yeah.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

I love how you tied in freedom to have fun.

Yeah.

Right.

That part. Yeah.

So what, so let me, I know we're, I know we're coming up on time, but Kevon, I gotta ask this question. What do you like to do for fun?

You stole my last question. Perfect alignment.

Well, I ran, I ran a half marathon today.

Oh, today?

Today. Yeah, I ran 13 miles. So it's a major milestone for me. So you can clap for me if you like. Hey, I'll clap for you. What do I like to do for fun? Well, I like to, I like to test, test my body. I I like to see what my body is capable of. And I've learned that as I test my body, it's also testing my spirit. Like, they're in— you all know that they're highly interconnected. And so I like to see what I'm made of. Like, that's for shits and giggles. I love to write. I love to create. You know, I identify as a creator similar to Freddie. Like, I'm I can be still. I meditate every day, but I'm not really good sitting on my hands. It's like I just have a lot in me to get out. I love to listen to music. I love to eat. I love to travel. I love to play with my daughter. You know, we, we have this thing where we go swimming regularly and we go to a jumping place regularly. Like, that shit's fun for me.

Yeah.

Like, I fucking love to jump around.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Those are, those are some of the things. Um, well, I love to be with my family, you know? Um, it's, it's, I'm, I'm, I am a family man and I, I, I never imagined Saying those words with, I guess, so much truth. But I'm a family man. Like, I feel like I was put on this planet to create this family. You know, as a king, I have my queen, I have my princess, and they're so much of my world. And I go hard. I go hard for them, right? Because I want— I want to create whatever it is that they want, whatever it is that they need. Like, I'm, I'm going to do everything I can to create it for them.

Beautiful. Well, my king, it was an honor to have you grace your presence, uh, grace us with your presence on our podcast. And, uh, thank you. Thank you so much. Um, And thank you for supporting us the way you have from day one.

Oh man, thank you. Again, thank you for letting me join you in conversation. Thank you for creating this thing that has given me so much, and I can only imagine what it has done for others. You know, it's added so much value to my life. And so I'm grateful, grateful that you all have created this beautiful, beautiful thing in the world. And so, and honored that I get to be a small part of it.

Pretty big part in my assertion. And please come back.

Oh, come on. Come on. Anytime you want me, episode 2, I'll be here next week. Don't tempt me with a good time.

Smith's on probation. He's, uh, if he doesn't watch out, he's gonna get replaced.

I would. I was really looking forward to meeting that man, so I gotta know what he ate.

Um, you know, I, I, I hear that it was, it, it was probably sushi.

Sushi in Wisconsin, right?

Sushi in Wisconsin. Yeah.

Yeah.

There are no oceans nearby. It's a little sus. Let's be real.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The Great Lakes though.

Like, it's like maybe if it was salmon, you know? Um, yeah, I don't know. Oh, that's too bad. Well, yeah, we'll definitely have to, to do this again and, and I'll hopefully I'll be able to meet Smit and be in conversation with, with the whole, whole crew. But I'm, I'm honored, deeply honored and grateful. Thank you.

Thank you so much for joining us, my man. So nice to meet you. So nice to get to hear your story, to see your beautiful heart. And thank you so much for the work that you're doing in the world. So necessary. Thank you. Alrighty.

Well, oh, Wes, you got, you got something?

No, I was just going to say it's super great to just be with you and yeah, we definitely, definitely got to stay connected and feel like I'm inspired and hyped up too about like that, that mission of, of liberation that I want to jump into however I can.

Let's get it.

Absolutely. And also, can I say kudos to you for doing the work that you have before becoming a father? I mean, that's— you and your future child and your partner are going to change the world. Solely because you've done the work before, you know, it's what a gift, what a gift. Adding more good to the world.

Yeah.

Means a ton to hear.

Appreciate you.

Join us next time as we continue exploring the full spectrum of our divine masculine essence to show the world what's possible when kings unite.