How Men Can Overcome Their Parental Wounds | S01 E07

Welcome back to When Kings Unite, the podcast where 4 modern kings hold masculinity as medicine. I'm Chris, and I'm honored to be your host for today's episode. Last time, Smit led a courageous conversation about vulnerability being a superpower. And today we're going to take that courage and use it to look at our foundations, specifically the wounds we carry from our mothers and fathers. These aren't easy conversations. The mother wound and father wound are powerful forces that shape our relationships, our self-worth, and how we show up in the world. But here's the thing: we can't heal what we don't acknowledge. So this conversation isn't about blame. It's about understanding and transforming the past so that it no longer dictates our future. Are you ready to go deep? Let's dive in. All right, welcome back, Kings. It's so good to see you again.

Hey.

And I'm really— hey, really looking forward to this conversation around mother wounds and father wounds, those wonderful gifts that our parents gave us. Here's the thing. We've all got parents, right? Like, whether we like them or not, whatever the relationship with them is or not, you know, they're a part of our lives. And we can learn so much about ourselves and where we are choosing to go in life by examining this part of ourselves. And as I said in the intro, it's not always easy conversations. So, as we have this conversation with each other, men, I would invite us to support each other and to be gentle with ourselves and with each other. You willing?

Yeah.

Yes, sir.

Thanks, guys. So I thought to start, we would just kind of do a little bit of an introduction. We've had episodes in the past, had an episode in the past where we introduced ourselves. to our listeners, I wonder if maybe we could just go around and introduce our parents to our listeners. Maybe we could just tell a little bit about who our parents are, what they mean to us, what it was like growing up. Before we dive into any part that might need to be healed, let's just get a little bit of a lay of the land. Who'd like to go first?

I'll go first.

Thanks.

Thanks for the opportunity to To introduce my parents, man. I have a lot of love for my parents.

Hmm.

I'd like to first introduce my mom. She goes by 2 names. One is Bakwati, and then 2 is Papu. And she goes by 2 names because when she first came to America, it was almost like required for her to have a second name. And Her relationship, like, with her name is, like, really shifted. Um, but she finds a lot of love in both, and she's, like, really found a way to integrate them. So I really wanted to honor both of the names that my mother, my mother goes by. And, um, man, my mom is, like, one of the most beautiful caretaking souls in the world. Like, she'll take care of anybody, their needs, anything they have. in their space, she'll be right on top of it. Um, for me, like, she embodies like true hospitality and motherhood, like to see it all and to care and to support. And, uh, oh man, sometimes to like shake it out of me too when I'm having my stuff. And, um, yeah, at the same time too, I noticed that my mom is always looking to find more fire for herself and power. And I really want to honor that part of her as well too. For my dad, um, he is the embodiment of true masculinity for me. He is a supporter, provider, lover. He's a king. And, um, he's also really not afraid to be messy. He's on like his own beautiful soul's path. And I'd be lying if I said he didn't trigger me sometimes or activate me sometimes. I'm just really called— last night we were having a conversation. He's kind of working through some health stuff and he's like, I don't think I'm gonna go to the doctor. I was like, you're gonna go to the doctor. And, you know, I speak another language. And last night I had the opportunity to yell at my dad at full force with my— my native tongue, Gujarati. And he completely didn't bat an eye. He just like took it all and he just kept going on with what he wanted to say. But he still inputted like, you know, the message I was giving him. And even though I was super pissed at him, I think that's the reason that I love my dad so much is that he can separate someone else's stuff from his stuff. And he has a lot of practice in it.

And Yeah.

He's just a beautiful, loving, powerful father soul. And I really appreciate him.

Cool, man. Thanks. What's his name?

Kenny.

Kenny.

I somehow forgot my dad's name.

No worries.

And I'm curious. So what, what you said that like your mom had to take a second name when she moved to America. What was that?

Yeah. So the experience that she had coming in, so My mom came to this country actually a year before my dad did, my current dad. My mom was actually married to somebody else, and I didn't find that out until I was like 12 years old. And it actually was a situation where this person married my mother just so they could get a citizenship to America, and then it really kind of like blew up in their faces. And at that current time, it was highly suggested that they had a quote unquote American name. So my mom, just like really excited for the opportunity to be in this country, was like, sure. And we just recently actually had a conversation around it. And she was like, yeah, I didn't want to at the time, but like, I'm realizing it was like an opportunity for me to like redefine my own name. And, you know, it's funny that I just said Kenny because my dad's actual name is Kamlash, actually. But he had the choice. Like, it wasn't as pressurized for him. But I call him like K-Dawg. I call him K-Dad. Like, I can throw out with my dad like all day long if I really wanted to. And yeah, it's been cool for like, you know, my family to like look at like this idea, like in the coaching world, we have this idea called like reinvention. And it's been cool to see like how my family has like empowered reinvention in their own ways, even though like they might have been in a situation where like they might have felt pressured. And they like created it to be their own, you know? Thanks for asking though.

Yeah. Thanks for sharing. That's so cool.

Yeah. I don't actually, man, I don't know the last time I introduced my parents or talked about my parents, um, in that way or that, that specific. So thank you for the opportunity, truly.

Yeah.

Um, so my parents are polar opposites. My mom, I've described her as a worrying warrior. Like, very— I've never once doubted how loved I was because I was loved very fucking intensely. She is so attuned to everyone else's needs. And yeah, as Smith said, for his mom, a true embodiment of care and hospitality mixed with a lot of anxiety and fear.

I would resonate with that too, actually.

Thanks. Thanks for saying that.

Yeah. And it's all, it's all Just really beautiful, like just the depth of love, no matter how messy it was and is.

Mm-hmm.

Just a real divine gift of it all. My dad, on the other hand, is super Zen Buddhist, super chill, goofy, go-with-the-flow. And also very reliable. Like, yeah, I don't know. I just, I never doubted that he had my back. I wrote a thing a few years ago when I realized as an adult, like, I was always more concerned with my relationship with my mom because that was the more Like the one that had more energy, the one that carried more with it. And I realized at some point, like, oh, I, I never really have to, like, worry about my dad. I never have to worry if he's, like, going to put a bunch of shit on me or, like, put a bunch of pressure on me. And then at some point I was like, oh wow, like, how beautiful is that, that I never had to worry about my dad, that he could truly accept who I was becoming and always stand behind that, even if he doesn't, like, express it directly that often. Like, his actions, the way he has been around me, has always let me know that. And so Yeah, it's funny to reflect on how different they are too, because my mom, super fiery, action-oriented, anxious, and my dad, super chill, very go-with-the-flow, kind of down for whatever. And then I contain both of those things, both the balance and the harmony, and also the polar sides of me too. Yeah, it's, it's cool and funny to see those reflected in me too.

Yeah, it's wild, isn't it? Like, as adults, as we grow and we can see our parents as people and not as, you know, mythical god figures, you know, and, and see, and then see them in ourselves too. It's, yeah, it's both empowering and as we'll get to, right, it's also a source of many of our wounds. Thanks for sharing, man.

Yeah.

Yeah. So my, my mom is just so, so close to my heart. We're basically the same person pretty much in terms of our temperament, personality. Loves to have fun, grounded, down to earth. Loves deeply, loves very, very deeply and intensely. And, um, just, uh, yeah, just one of the, one of the pure embodiment of love people that I've ever met. She gives the best hugs. I'm not saying that just because I'm her son, but she literally gives the best hugs on the planet. Um, And I've learned so much from her in what it means to be open, what it means to love, what it means to accept and allow, and also what it means to grow, right? To shift things that aren't working in a courageous way, even if it's an unpopular way. Like, that's something that she modeled for me at various points throughout her life. And then, well, I have 3 dads, so I'll tell you about each of them briefly. My biological father, he left when I was about 3, is when he and my mom got separated and divorced. And then he reentered my life in my late teens, and he was there for several years until my early 20s. And then he moved across the country and we drifted apart and passed away a couple of years ago during COVID And there are some things that are still left incomplete, I think, in terms of what I hold with him inside of me. But even when he was in my life in my late teens and early 20s, he was more like an uncle. Like, I never felt that strong parental bond or that really like, this is my— my blood comes from his blood kind of a thing. It was more like someone who is part of the extended family unit and structure, but I didn't really feel that kind of dad energy from him or like that child relationship toward him. So I mentioned that he and my mom divorced when I was very young. And then just after I turned 4 is when my mom married my stepdad. And this is the man that raised me. He's the man I call my dad. And he was— he's just a hard man, you know, just the kind of man that is— he had a tough time growing up for himself. Both of his parents were alcoholics and just not very emotionally available. To be honest. He certainly did his best, and he was trying to connect with my older brother and myself, who are his adopted kids. And then he and my mom had a younger brother. He's 8 years younger than me. He's my half-brother. Yeah, but it was a struggle for him, I think, to connect with anyone, probably including himself. And so it was. We were always provided for and taken care of, but it wasn't. You know, I got my hugs from my mom, and the warmth and the love and the the tender affection I got from my mom. And yeah, my dad was a steady, strong, not super available presence in my life. I'll also. share that both my parents, all I was growing up, battled chronic depression, both my mom and my dad. So that was something that was in my space as I was growing up as well. And that certainly affected how they parented and what my experience of them was. And then when my mom and my stepdad, they split not long after I left the house, I was in my early 20s. When they separated and divorced, then my mom remarried to her third husband, who I've met a couple of times, but it hasn't been— we haven't spent a whole lot of time together. Salt of the earth, Midwestern, steady, cool, calm, and collected. He's got his shit together, which is kind of a perfect complement to how my mom is. She's very much in her heart. She's very much in her emotions, and he's very much in his head. But he has What I know of him is he's got reasonable facility with his emotional side as well. So yeah, I'm so happy for her. You know, she's been with him for 25 years now, almost 25 years. And, you know, I've never seen her happier than when she was married to him.

Love that.

Yeah. So it's— I have kind of a spectrum of experiences. Uh, with my parents, which means I have a spectrum of wounds that we'll be diving into here in a little bit.

I can definitely relate to that. Um, thank you for that, Chris, and to all of you for introducing your parents. Um, this is interesting for me because I've never introduced my parents in such a way like this before. And there's a part of me that's excited to do so and also a little anxious, 'cause I'm like, how do I put my parents into words, right? In such a brief period of time. But my parents were young when they had me. My mom was 17, my dad was 18. I think at a later time, I'll share the story About, uh, specifically about how I came into the world and that, what that experience was for my mother. Um, but, you know, my mother was, like I said, 17 years old when, when I came into the world. And so in essence, she was a, a young Black girl raising, raising a young Black boy in America.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, no parent, of course, has a manual or a handbook for how to do this. So for her to have done the job that she did with me at such a young age, I will always have the utmost love and respect for my mother. Yes, there are definitely wounds there. I wrote a whole dissertation about it.

Literally.

Um, part of my doctoral dissertation was, was heuristic inquiry around, you know, my own mother wounds. Um, at the same time, you know, recognizing that my mother had wounds of her own and still does. That, you know, I don't know, I don't know if, you know, she, she has fully healed or, or is even in the process of healing. from her own wounds or if, you know, she's just kind of rolling with it, which, you know, that's kind of how she is. She just kind of, this is what happened and I'm rolling with it and I'm moving forward. I learned a lot about masculinity more so from my mother than my father. My mother was— if you think about the spectrum of masculinity and femininity, my mother was sort of more on the masculine end.

Mm-hmm.

Of the spectrum. She, you know, might refer to herself as a tomboy. Growing up, she was very tomboyish. Um, and that impacted her worldview and a lot of her views around how men are supposed to be. So that impacted me as a boy, uh, growing up, you know, with her teaching me how to, you know, you know, her interpretation of how a man is supposed to be, and then sort of deferring to my father for everything else. But my parents divorced when I was 6 years old. And so I spent the majority of my time with my mother, and I spent time with my dad on weekends. So because I spent the majority of my time with my mother, I learned more about malehood and masculinity from My mother sort of like, in a lot of ways, projecting her views about that onto me. And then on weekends, I would like actually see demonstrated from my father what manhood and malehood is and was. And so my dad and I, both my parents and I have an amazing relationship. My parents remained friends when they divorced. So, you know, there was never a situation where I felt like I was torn between the two or anything like that. I felt loved by both sides of my family, by both parents. And I recognized at a very early age that, like, I was never one of those kids who was like, oh, my parents, I need my parents to be back together so we can be a family. And like, I was never that kid. I appreciated my mother for being who she was without my father. I appreciated my father for who he was. And they both remarried numerous times. My mom is currently on her 3rd marriage. My dad is on his 4th. My current stepparents are amazing. Love them both. And so, yeah. And I've, in previous episodes, I've talked about my relationship with my dad, so I won't go into that. get too deep into that now, but I think in my later years as an adult, that's when I really— my dad became my hero in a lot of ways. Just seeing, again, just seeing how he moves, how he navigates the world, how he lives his life in service and impacts other people's lives.

Yeah.

Like, my dad— both my parents, in many regards, are my heroes. But definitely, definitely my dad. And it's interesting because my mother, when I was a kid, occurred to me as very sort of like free-spirited, very kind of silly. And I would tell her that. I was like, Mommy, you're really silly. And I was like a serious sort of kid growing up.

Right.

And it's almost like we've now switched places where my mom, in a lot of ways, tends to be more serious about stuff, and I'm like the free spirit and wanting to be more playful.

Mm-hmm.

And I've kind of noticed that in my dad as well. My dad seemed to be more on the serious side when I was a kid, and as he's gotten older, he's become a bit more playful. And so my energy sort of ebbs and flows. as my parents do. So those are my parents.

That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I just like had a big smile on my face as you were explaining a lot of that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'll echo that. Like what I'm hearing from, from everyone is I get a chance to meet your parents through your words. Um, just how much love is there, right? And, um, I can't help but notice that perhaps the 4 of us may be blessed in that regard, that we do have parents that loved us and we knew that they loved us, right? And that we, for me, there was never really a doubt that that love was there. It was palpable. It was tangible. I could feel it. And no parents are perfect, right? No human is perfect.

Yeah.

As children, as we grow, we mature into adulthood, there comes that moment when you realize, wait, my parents aren't perfect. My parents aren't the demigod that I've held them up to be. And it can be a bit of a jarring thing when they get knocked off that pedestal. Life, something happens, and all of a sudden we see them through a completely different light. And it's almost like, for me, it's like my experience is that's when the box comes open, like Pandora's box. And it's like, oh, well, you know, what else is in there, um, that I didn't know or that I wasn't willing to see?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and all this stuff that comes up, you know, through our parents' imperfections and their scars and their sharp pointy bits that we just didn't really see when we were kids, but they still wound us. Right? They're still with us. They still impact us. And I'm curious what you all have seen either in yourself or in the men in your life. How does he— how do they show up? Like, how do these mother wounds and father wounds typically manifest or show up in the lives of adult men and in the relationships of adult men? What do you see?

Yeah, I can go first around this. And before I answer that question, I think what I really want to speak out loud is like what you just said, Chris, how fortunate we are to have these circumstances with our parents.

Yeah.

Like regardless of whatever, you know, stuff that we have around it or holding on it, I'm really saddened and heartbroken for the people that may not have these circumstances.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, um, What else? Like, what I'm also present to at this time is like, like the story or this narrative that like men can't be powerful men unless they have like a male role model or they have this XY, like this really distinct personality that's like traditional male. Like other, if we don't have that, we can't be whole. That's sometimes the experience that I get, um, in society. And, um, I'm really noticing, like, you know, Freddie's situation, Wes, yours too, Chris, like how it wasn't the traditional model, but I would consider you all to be powerful men. And how there's many people in my life, like some of the most powerful, respectful men that I know didn't grow up in these perfect traditional households either.

Mm-hmm.

And it's cool to actually, like, for me, see that narrative be switched just through sharing the stories. So again, I really want to highlight this. I know I said it a couple of times, but thank you for the space to say that. And it gets me to think, like, how much the world would be different if we all got to share more of our parents' stories.

Yeah. Thank you for highlighting that, Smith.

Yeah.

It's huge.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And to kind of answer your question too, man, at the same time, How these wounds manifested, I think, is like through the— for me, through the lens of like, oh, it needs to be this thing, like whether it's on me or, or society. So like, I'm really present to like when I was growing up, like, oh man, my friend's parents have this, why don't you have this? So that was like on me, like I created that circumstance and some of those wounds. And then the other thing that I'm really present to is like, I think, Dr. Freddy, you said it, but how my parents were actually just human beings. And I still remember the first time where I recognized that my dad was a human being, and it was when he was being carried out on a stretcher because we were afraid that he had a heart attack.

Yeah.

And in that moment, I was like, oh wait, my dad's not a superhuman. Like, he is a superhuman, but not, like, invincible. And it just got me to, like, recognize that, oh yeah, my dad's just a person like me. And throughout the time, like, again, I've been activated and triggered in many, many, many ways by my parents. But I do see that, like, their generational trauma has also been put on them.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. One of the ways that I see, thanks for that, Smith. I'll pause and say, first of all, thanks for, thanks for that reflection and for that sharing. Really appreciate that.

Okay.

And you touched on it in that kind of generational, like the patterns, the generational patterns. I see that happen so commonly. I see it happen in myself. Like the ways in which my mother specifically shows up in relationship is a perfect mirror for how I would automatically show up in relationship, right? There was— that's what I learned from her and wasn't always healthy, right? It wasn't always good. And that was, you know, part of what she was given. And that's what the people that trained her, that taught her and gave that to her were also given. It's like this, this generational cycle. That I was the recipient of. And yeah, it had me being, yeah, pretty disempowered, in a constant state of people pleasing, making sure that everyone was happy with me. I would deprioritize my own wants, my own needs, talk myself out of it. They're not that important, right? Those are some of the, some of the ways that it would show up for me. Because that's what I saw modeled for me. You know, that's, that's what I was— that's what I was taught that love is. Right. And so, yeah, it was, it was tough for me to kind of first see that and to break, to break free from it, to be able to get more empowered in my life, specifically in romantic relationship. And in partnership, to get past and through the fear of, well, hey, if I say this thing, then whatever story I make up, that's going to happen, right? To kind of work through that and to no longer have that have control over me. And I can't help but notice that, again, my mom kind of showed me the way in that, you know, Her relationship, her marriage to my stepfather, the man who raised me, wasn't easy. And for her to kind of show and model what it means to stand for oneself and to not be in a constant place of people pleasing was pretty eye-opening for me as well. Now, I learned I personally took on that lesson much later than when she was modeling it for me. Right. I still continued with that, that old way of being for many, many years in relationship. But yeah, I'm just really— on the one hand, you know, it hurts to have that, to have to learn those lessons kind of the hard way for myself. And I'm also grateful that in many ways she showed me the way of how to, how to step through it. Right. And how to expand and how to, how to be more courageous in relationship.

Wow.

Thank you, Chris. Um, you know, this is such a broad conversation, and as I'm sitting here listening to all of your shares, it's like, man, like, when I think about parental wounds, like, they're, they're probably more numerous and run deeper than I can even think about right now.

Yeah.

Um, and so, but, but, but what I can share is that one of the mother wounds specifically that I've been navigating through, healing from, healing through, breaking through lately has been Um, I think you, you kind of touched on it a little bit, Chris, around the, the people pleasing.

Mm-hmm.

I have such deep love, admiration, and reverence for my mother that I'm noticing areas in my life where that has crippled me, paralyzed me, um, because it's like it's this ongoing battle with perfectionism, you know, being taught right from wrong, right? And being corrected, you know, constantly when I am wrong. And, um, you know, Just, it developed into this story or this narrative around, I need to be perfect in order to get approval. I need to be perfect in order to be loved. I need to be perfect in order to be validated, to be worthy. Like, there is this— like, it built me into a performer.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And being a Black male in America, like, that's sort of like a— that's a thing for us. Like, we are taught by our parents and our families, in order to survive, this is how you need to perform. This is how you need to show up. in society. And that in itself is wounding, you know, especially when there are parts of us that are, you know, screaming, dying to be seen and to say, see me, love me. Even the parts that you know, may be unpretty, the parts that may be messy, will you still love me anyway? And I think deep down, I always knew that my parents loved me no matter what. But there was always this other piece of the experience that was like, but if that's the case, then—

What?

Why am I always being corrected? Why am I always, you know, being chastised or, you know, disciplined for doing something that felt right and authentic to me? You know? And so that has been something that even as, you know, I just turned 45 years old, as a 45-year-old man, I'm still— these are things that I'm still working through and learning how to give myself permission to define what is right for me and untethering from— I guess in a lot of ways, cutting the umbilical cord from my mother. That's such a good analogy.

Yeah.

Like getting myself to a point where I can And say, you know what? I don't give a fuck about what Jocelyn has to say about that or what she thinks about that. Oh, by the way, my mom's name is Jocelyn, and my dad's name is Freddie. I'm named after my dad. I'm a junior. So, yeah, that's what came up for me.

You don't look like a junior. Yeah.

Smith, what do juniors look like?

Tiny.

Fair enough.

Yeah, really appreciate y'all sharing. I was, um, hmm, yeah, I was thinking about how to answer this question of like, how do parental wounds show up in, in our adult lives, because it's like, how don't they, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And was kind of thinking, like, do I go broad or just get straight into it? Let's get, let's get straight into my core trauma. So, yeah, and noting too that, like, You know, my mom grew up during the Cultural Revolution in China when the Communist Party was taking over. Um, a lot of real fucking reasons to be afraid, um, to be on edge all the time and make sure you're doing everything correctly, being perceived perfectly. And As a result, I don't honestly know too much about how my mom grew up. She doesn't talk about it very much, but she has made self-sacrifice such a core part of her identity that there's some kind of nobility in suffering for others and sacrificing yourself for others. And she often cares for others at the expense of herself. When, you know, even when my dad and I are actively telling her, like, please take care of yourself, please do not do more shit for us, she continually takes on that burden and kind of runs herself into the ground.

Mm-hmm.

And then resents us for it, which, you know, totally understandable. And yeah, I remember when I was 6 or so, there was a stretch of time where my mom would come back from work just super burnt out, living this life that she didn't want to live but felt like she had to. And she would come home almost every day for what, in my memory, it's like a matter of months, like telling us how she wanted to commit suicide and it was all our fault for not loving her enough.

Wow.

And when I asked, like, well, Mom, like, I do love you. What can I do for you? She said, if you really loved me, you would know.

Mm.

And so I, similarly Freddie, spent a lot of my life, like, still shaking off the being— not just being a performer and, like, doing all the things to be, like, the perfect Chinese American boy, But to be like perfectly attuned to her needs, to be a perfect caretaker for her. Because yeah, it was like, oh, if I don't, she might actually die.

Mm-hmm.

And then I won't have a mom. And yeah, it was obviously like very deeply painful to me. And after processing it in many different ways over many years now, I can also see that it brought me so many blessings. The way I'm able to be emotionally attuned now, the way I'm able to love so deeply, the way I'm able to face darkness in others and darkness in myself and meet that with love, I wouldn't have that if not for that experience with my mom either, and being able to learn to love her exactly as she is. And so, yeah, we often focus on, like, all the bad parts of, of the trauma, and also there's, there's a lot of beauty in that too.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. I, what I, I will add in from my experience is, um, I think there's a lot of beauty if we choose it to be that way. And, um, yeah, I just really wanna acknowledge you, man, for like choosing that path. Like my, my take on it is so much easier to be like, fuck all these other people. I'm good. Um, regardless of if it's parents or not. And, um, Yeah. I'm just really like captivated by how you've chosen this with your with your parents, regardless of, you know, the impact that it might have had on you. So thanks for modeling it for everybody.

Yeah, that really resonated with me as well, for sure. Uh, you know, as I, as I went through my, uh, my, my research and my doctoral process and was doing the, the work internally, like that was part of my research. Um, all these things were coming up, and my instinct was, ooh, all these things are coming up regarding my mother. I'm gonna have to— I'm gonna have to have a conversation with her about these things.

Mm.

Like, that was the— that was the, the knee-jerk reaction or the instinct. And when I sat with it, when I allowed myself to sit with everything that came up, What ultimately emerged was, no, I don't— I actually don't have to have these conversations with my mother because this is now my shit to clean up. This is now my shit that it is my responsibility to heal. It doesn't have anything to do with her anymore. And I just had that much more respect and, and, and, um, I guess reverence is the best word I can come up with for my mother. Because again, like I said earlier, she has her own wounds, right? You know, she has her own shit to deal with and clean up. And like everyone has said, no one is perfect. There is no such thing as a perfect parent. So what would be the point in having a conversation about Shit that happened 40 years ago now. Like, I mean, yeah, if it came— if it comes up in sort of like a casual conversation and we just, you know, sort of casually talk about it, that's fine. But it doesn't need to be this huge, big ordeal, you know?

Yeah. Bernie, if you don't— oh, sorry, Chris, if you want to go, but I'll fight you for it, so.

You'll win.

All right. Sorry.

Thanks, man.

Appreciate that. Uh, that was way easier than I thought.

Um.

I've seen you fight.

He was— He was raised to be a people pleaser. We just heard him say that.

Ding, ding, ding. Give that man the teddy bear.

Me too. Me too. I'm curious for you, Freddie, because I love that you like brought up like a real-time example over this. Like, what was the benefit of you taking that on? You're like yourself, like choosing that path for you? Because what I'm aware of, like, I literally just had a conversation with a client yesterday And she was like, but what's the, what's the benefit for me in choosing a different path? And, you know, we kind of coached to it and she came up with her own answer. But I'm really curious for you, like, what was the benefit for you specifically for choosing, hey, that's my stuff now. I get to claim responsibility and ownership of that.

Mm-hmm.

That's where, that's where all the real healing is. Like, The healing is in me doing my own work and not attaching someone else or making someone else responsible for it. Everything that is happening in my life now is mine. And so to— yes, I can do all the reflecting and, you know, unpacking and all of that stuff. But at this point, Ain't got shit to do with her. Not anymore. It's mine. I'm still holding it. You know, it's still like, this is whatever tension or traumas or tension as a result of traumas are being held up in my body doesn't have anything to do with her. So it's—

Yeah.

It's—

that's my healing is in my body. So I need to address my body. Not her body.

Yeah.

Yeah, I totally get that. Thank you for asking that question, Smith. Powerful question. And Freddie, I really appreciate your willingness to share. I'm really present to the distinction between taking 100% responsibility for the shit that you're carrying and also not having it be a bypass. Right? One of the things you said was like, oh, I don't have to have that conversation with my mom. And it's true, you don't. That doesn't mean you don't— there's not value in processing it, right? That doesn't mean just put it in the box and put it on the shelf and just don't deal with it. You still— there's still so much value and gold and healing that happens through, through that processing. And I think that's a distinction that many men specifically, I would say, in modern times tend to not quite get right, right? Or they don't, they don't necessarily step into the healing space. They simply say, you know what? I don't have to have that conversation. I'm over it. It's in the past. I'm an adult now. I'm no longer a kid. It can't hurt me. It doesn't affect me. When in fact, they're actually choosing to carry it every day in ways that are kind of harmful, that are debilitating and limiting how they show up in life. So I really appreciate that distinction that you brought in between taking 100% responsibility and also still doing the work.

Right.

And it doesn't have to be something that you do, that you put on your parent.

Right.

Or something. And even you do— it doesn't have to be something you do in partnership with them. It could be a conversation or something that you work out together, but that you take 100% responsibility is really powerful there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, you know, in talking about benefits, like knowing my mother how I know my mother, there wouldn't be much benefit in— for either of us in having Yeah. A you did this conversation.

Yeah, me too. That would not go well. Like, at all. There would be more trauma added.

Yeah. Typically, you did this conversations don't tend to go well. Like, I'll absolutely grant you that. And the processing is so important. And what I'm— what I'd like to put in here, and it's something that we've been doing over the past several episodes here, is kind of bringing in some practical application, right? Some exercises perhaps that our listeners, um, who, you know, they may not know exactly how or have a whole lot of facility with how to unpack some of these mother wounds or father wounds, right? So are, are y'all willing to play? You want to go through an exercise real quickly and, uh, and see what sort of work we can do with parent wounds?

Let's fucking do it.

Let's go.

Let's get it.

Let's get it.

All right. So, um, It's actually a pretty brief exercise. I'll ask a series of prompts, a series of questions, and I would invite you just to write down— doesn't have to be a doctoral dissertation, Freddie, not another one of those.

Exactly.

But just the first thing that comes to your mind with these prompts. And for those listening, if you're able to, you can pause and maybe make your own notes or perhaps come back and listen later. And do this exercise along with us. So the first question is this. And first, before we get in, I want to— before I ask the first question, I want to make sure that it's properly framed. The goal here, right, is to shift out of a place of blame, shift out of a place of hurt into one of compassion and understanding for our parents. And really, in doing so, it's a way of liberating ourselves from the past.

Right?

And actually embodying that liberation, not just saying, oh, I've grown up, that doesn't hurt me anymore, but actually processing it and getting truly free from it. So here's the first question, and I'll ask it, and then I would ask you just to silently write down your answer. We'll go on to the next question. We'll come back and do a quick review. So here's the question: think about a moment when you felt a core wound from your mother or father. Without judgment, what was the feeling that you experienced in that moment? What was the emotion? Now, take a step back and think about that parent. What might they have been carrying at that moment? What wounds or fears might they have been operating from that caused them to act in that way? Now, having considered what your parent was carrying, what is a new insight or a different perspective that you can now have about the situation and about that moment that that wounding occurred? And now, thinking about this new perspective, standing with this new lens on what happened, what is one message of love or understanding that you would want to convey to your mother or father today, not as a son, but as a fellow human being? These are 4 simple yet powerful questions that can help to reframe, right, and shift some of the wounding, the experiences we had that wound us. So I'm curious, as much as you're willing to share, I'm curious to hear what you all came up with. Hmm.

Well, first, thank you, Chris, for that. That was very, very powerful. Um, it was a powerful exercise for me because what was revealed to me was the same emotions that I was, you know, feeling and recalling from the incident, uh, were the same Emotions that I assert my parents were carrying, which was shame and guilt. And so thinking about, it's like, oh, wow, if that's what I was carrying and that's what they were carrying that even had the event occur the way it did, we were both— experiencing the same energy and projecting it onto each other. And so what I get to be and who I get to be and who I get to— what I get to embody now is compassion and acceptance. Like, that's the new— that's the new lens that I get to view. the situation through now. And I have to say, one of the words that I wrote down that I drew a line through was forgiveness.

Mm.

And I drew a line through it because there's nothing to be forgiven. If this is all our human process, and it's all about us learning, through our human process, then there's nothing to be forgiven. It's all about compassion for what is and acceptance for what is. And what I would share to both my parents for any events that may have been wounding for me is, I love you, all of you, because I choose to.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Without exception, full stop.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Thanks, Freddie.

Yeah.

Powerful work, man. Thank you.

Dude.

Thank you.

That was really beautiful. Thank you. I'll go next. Um, yeah, I remember just, um, my, my parents believe in corporal punishment, or they used to, uh, when I was younger. And I remember like the first time I got like the towel, right? Like I heard the snap of the towel, like, I was like, what the fuck is happening? Like, I didn't get it at all. I just remember like pain registering, right? And what I wrote down for my parents was upset, confusion, anger. And I had all those same things, like to kind of Freddie's point. And in that moment, I was also seeking to understand in that point. And I was like, there has to be a better way than this. Like, I actually remembered feeling that. As a child. And, um, looking back at it and like some of the healing work that I'd done, the thing that I wrote down is, love isn't about getting it right all the time. It's about seeking to understand. And I have it that because I chose to understand in that moment, like, my life got to choose a different path. Like, I, I don't remember where this quote came from. But it's like hurt people hurt other people, or like it's more easier to do that. And the same way I think goes back, right? Like if I can love and understand people, I'll get the same thing coming back to me, or it's more easily accessible. Um, yeah, so I'm just really present to like that beautiful message. And, um, yeah, I'm definitely gonna post that somewhere tonight and yeah, just let it soak in.

Yeah, really resonating with all of that. Um, yeah, I think what I became present to is like, not that it's really about comparison, but, um, no matter how much pain and fear and helplessness I was facing, My mom was facing even more of that and just, yeah, had this deep pain that she had no idea what to do with. And it kind of— I don't know if you guys have seen the Pixar movie Turning Red, which is, yeah, especially relevant for me as a Chinese American, but like the scene at the end. Where they just show like this very intense tiger mom, very like not dissimilar from my mom, like really the incredible amount of pain and grief and sorrow that she was feeling that led her to become that way. Like that. Yeah, I just remember Bawling at that scene, being able to see my mom in that way. And to that hurt little girl inside of her who probably never got to really be a little girl, I said, you are a true warrior of love. You deserve all the love in the world.

Wow. Thanks for sharing, Wes. Really, really touches me deeply and powerful work. Thank you all for your willingness to look and consider that these are 4 simple prompts, 4 simple questions that can serve as a foundation for a really powerful exercise for yourselves, for myself, for any of our listeners. A common way of clearing some of these past experiences, whatever we may be holding, is simply to write a letter, right? To get it out of us. So consider that what we've written down on your piece of paper, your Post-its, or whatever you've scribbled on just in these past few minutes can serve as a foundation, a bit of an outline for a really powerful processing letter, not one that necessarily gets sent or shared. But simply as a way to really deeply process and get to a point where you can let go, right? Really release the trauma from these father and mother wounds. Thank you all for playing, and thank you for your courage in doing so.

Thank you, man.

Appreciate you.

Yeah. And that does bring us to the close of what I know has been a challenging yet a very important I would say essential conversation on how we are with parental wounds.

I thought that was fun, man. Thanks.

Yeah, yeah, you're the one that thought it was fun.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. My experience.

But I want to thank all of you. Thank all you men for holding space for this vital work. And always remember, the goal isn't to erase the past, pretend it didn't happen, but is to understand the impact of what happened, then to integrate the lessons, to take full responsibility. For our own lives, as Freddie said. And when we do this, by doing this work, we really empower ourselves to build healthier relationships. We break these generational cycles, and we really embody the powerful, loving man that we're meant to be. So look forward to the next episode when we'll be diving into another deep conversation and continuing to practice masculinity as medicine. Until then.

Bye.

To you men, to all of our listeners, continue to lean into your healing and keep uniting within, and we'll connect soon.

Thank you.