Masculinity & Media: Shaping Bodies & Beliefs | S01 E09

This is When Kings Unite, the podcast where we journey with our mantra, masculinity as medicine. I'm Dr. Freddy, and I'm ecstatic to be your host for this episode. And as always, I'm joined by my fellow kings, Smit, Chris, and Wes. Today we're going to have what I'm sure will be a spirited discussion about the role media in sports and entertainment plays in shaping our views of masculinity. Sometimes the messaging is blatant, other times it's subliminal. We will be exploring both ends of that spectrum and hopefully have a little bit of fun doing it. Are you ready?

Let's go.

All right. How are you doing, guys?

Good, good.

How you doing, Doc?

Phenomenal.

Sensational. Okay, so to tee us up for this conversation, I want to talk about this documentary film that I watched several years ago, and it's called The Mask You Live In. It's a documentary that explores how narrow definitions of masculinity across numerous themes in American culture pressures boys and men to suppress their emotions, leading to issues like depression and violence and substance abuse. Has any one of you seen that film, The Mask You Live In?

Never.

Haven't. No.

Okay. I highly recommend it. It's on YouTube, actually. It was created by Jennifer Siebel Newsom, who is Gavin Newsom's partner. Very, very beautiful film. It's one of my favorite films. And One of the themes that I found most fascinating was around the effect media imagery has on men's psyches, their emotions, and our behaviors, and how masculinity is visually tied to TV, movies, music, sports, and even video games. One expert interviewed in the film Even suggests, and I quote here, advertisers know that if there was no effect, the advertising industry would collapse because the industry is based on media imagery having an effect on people's behavior.

Right.

So my first question to you all is, how have Hollywood, sports, media, and entertainment shaped your understanding of masculinity, both positive end of the spectrum and negative?

Yeah. How hasn't it?

Right?

That's probably the— it's a much shorter answer to that question is how hasn't it shaped it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just— the imagery piece of it that you were talking about, and of course advertisers do it because it works. Right? That's, that's only logical. Um, but you know, you see these, you grow up growing up with these beer commercials with these guys running around on the beach with their shirt off and they got the 6-pack abs and, you know, just like the perfect body. Um, that's the first thing that comes to mind.

Freddie Minor, because he has one.

Right? Yeah. He's like, oh, you mean like this? Um, but But no, it's, it's, it seemed like that was the ideal. Like, this is what it means to actually be, you know, at the top, at the top of the man heap, if you will. This is what it looks like. And I never had that. You know, it's like when I was growing up, when I started my freshman year of high school, I was 5 foot tall and 100 pounds soaking wet. Like, I was a very late bloomer. The summer between junior— excuse me, sophomore and junior years of high school, I grew like 8 inches in those 10 weeks in between. So I came back and I was obviously completely clumsy. I was like a baby giraffe because I hadn't figured out how to use these long limbs yet. But I was never— I was reasonably athletic. I could play basketball or soccer or whatever and hold my own out on the—

Court.

You know, just not competitively, but just out there playing pickup ball or whatever. But, but I never had like the prototypically sculpted male body that we all see. And that was something that always stuck with me through much of my life of judging myself as not being attractive enough, not being desirable enough. Like, what hot chick is going to want this because I don't look like the guys on TV do?

Yeah, thanks for speaking to those things. Like, I'm just like kind of recalling a bunch of like movies that I used to watch in my head right now. And yeah, I— this is something that I found really like pretty distasteful. And I remember even like feeling it as a kid, like the, the jocks, the really big men who were like crazy muscular, always had like the girls. Like, I remember that was like so clear in almost like every fucking movie that I watched, like movie show. Um, yeah, and it was like, oh, so I have to look this certain way in order to get that experience out of life. Um, yeah, and that was like really jarring because I think that's where a lot of, um, my views around relationships, uh, sex, uh, how I view myself as a man, like it was largely tied to like partners. And if it never like fit that model, Like, it was bad. And that also includes like, you know, I'm a straight man, but I also have like a lot of friends who are not, right? And like, there was a part of me I remembered like always feeling jarred, like, oh, but that's not the thing that I learned. And like, I always had to kind of like work through that. And I'm really glad that I did to be like more open-hearted. But yeah, it was really kind of upsetting. And it also reminds me like, it only speaks to like a very small, minute percentage of my— of like society and the world, movies and shows do that portray that. One thing though that I am recalling, like specifically like The Karate Kid, like it's usually the heroes in that movie are the ones that are like the most purpose-driven. And I'm really glad that I actually learned that message because that's something that I actually believe that I practice a lot in my life is like, how can I like lead through purpose? And sometimes those guys weren't the biggest people in the room, but it ended up being the best-case scenario for them at the end of the movie. So I do remember that as a really cool silver lining in it. But yeah, I'm kind of like, I have some upset and anger with Hollywood and media in general, I feel like, because it— I feel like they don't— Sometimes they don't really care about the impact they can have on the world, like just portraying things a really certain way. And I think it's amazing, like some of the artists and directors that choose to like step outside of that bubble on purpose to create like a real shift. I'm like, wow, that's nothing more brave and courageous than to like step outside of what society tells us to be.

Yeah, I grew up so My middle school experience was around the time both Twilight came out and 300 came out. So on one hand, I— it was like the girls drooling over Taylor Lautner, who had like a fucking 8-pack and was jacked. And the dudes are like, yo, look at these fucking Spartans, dude. Like, let's fucking get just as jacked. And so I basically made up around that time that like, all right, I need to always be ripped and have abs, be buffed as fuck. be desirable. And like, even now I'm like, if I don't, I mean, it's like, even if I do have abs, but there's like a little body fat there, I like, I just, yeah, the body dysmorphia kicks in. Feel kind of bad about myself. I feel fat. Um, but also a positive influence. Um, I guess like often sitcom dads in general, but like particularly Uncle Phil. Was, uh, that was my guy growing up.

Yeah.

Like, very much embodied, like, this safe masculine container. Or yeah, even if he was gonna be, like, out of line or crazy or goofy, like, he could always own his shit and, like, really come back to a place of love and understanding. So a lot of different messages out there, both positive and negative, that kind of lead to those masculine archetypes in Hollywood.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think the thing that you said around like body dysmorphia, like I battle with that all the time, like literally every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like thinking about I remember the first show that I like really distinctly remembered watching as a kid was like Power Rangers. And they like were athletic and they could flip. And I'm like, oh, that's what a human's supposed to do. Like, and I've like tried flipping off like my couch and I almost fucking broke my leg a few times. But, um, yeah, like that, like I remember started the shape of it for me, like started the mold. Um, and now to this day, like, I don't think I'm like fat or unathletic, but sometimes I believe it. Like, those stories sometimes, like, seep into the back of my head. I'm like, fuck. And from a lot of the guys that I speak to, they deal with the same stuff too. Yeah.

I mean, that— I'm actually amazed that all of you are speaking to and sort of mirroring my story. Because when I think about how Hollywood media sports, how it has shaped my understanding and view of masculinity, it's primarily around physicality. And, you know, Wes, I love that you invited in— like, it's like the perfect segue into my story around the body dysmorphia, because, you know, from a young age, I believed that there was a certain type of physique that represented a masculine one. And it was even in cartoons. Like, some of my favorite cartoons, like, you know, I was a huge He-Man and the Masters of the Universe franchise fan, still am. But, you know, He-Man, ThunderCats, G.I. Joe, like, all of these shows had these really, you know, jacked, humongous bodybuilder-like characters. And, you know, they were all— you know, it was all images that featured, you know, fit and muscular men. And it wasn't just the cartoons. It was in all forms of media. And so naturally, as I got older, I started, like, exploring ways that I could develop my body in that way. So, one story I like to tell is when I was about 13, I took a trip to Atlanta one summer. I was invited to be a part of a 2-week program at Georgia Tech, and I stayed with some family members, an aunt, a great— a grandaunt and uncle that lived there.

And...

While I was staying there, one of my cousins, who at the time was a college football star, I remember he was, like, super jacked. Like, he looked like the superheroes that I had seen in the cartoons. And I just remember being so enamored with his physique that he and my other cousin, when I expressed interest in working out with them, They took me down. They had, like, a basement, and they had this weight bench. And so they took me down. I was like a little thin beanpole. And they took me down into the basement, rolled my little sleeves up on my shirt, and they taught me how to bench press for the first time. And I was hooked ever since. I went home for my 13th birthday, asked my mom for a weight set for my birthday. And so that's what I got. And I started buying up a bunch of muscle, bodybuilder fitness magazines, and like, I was fully immersed in it. And with that came the body and the muscle dysmorphia. Because as thin as I always was, like, and seeing all these images of all these men who were much larger and more ripped and You know, all of that. Uh, it, it was this perpetual state of comparison that I was in. I was always comparing myself to, to other people, and no matter how much I grew, it was never enough. Um, so, yeah. So, um, what, like, what, what are some common body image struggles Um, or experiences with body dysmorphia, uh, like what, what are some of your experiences with that and how can we actually address this?

Yeah, I can, um, speak to mine. Mine's still kind of, uh, fresh right now. So it was about like 2 and a half years ago. I think I was like, throughout the week I was probably doing like 10-ish hours of training. Um, I think in like a previous episode I'd mentioned that I do Krav Maga training, but I also was doing quite a bit of CrossFit and like, I was kind of like chasing that high a little bit of like, yeah, I gotta like, one, I like working out, right? Like, so I made it fun. But, but yeah, I had to like look a certain way. I had to like be slim, but like built like this, like really perfect physique.

Slim and thick.

Yeah, basically. Right. So What had happened, I think it was like around the summer. It wasn't necessarily the working out, but I'm sure— I know it's a direct result of it. I was helping a buddy move into a home, excuse me, in our area. And like, I was helping him lift like a cabinet, I think it was. And I ended up like pulling both my bicep tendons. Like, it was just like a strain. And it's really shitty because like the amount of working out, the The amount of food I was eating, like, wasn't enough. My recovery wasn't as solid. I kind of just, like, banked on me being, quote unquote, like, young enough-ish to, like, recover well. I never had to, like, deal with a major injury before. But, like, the thing that was driving it underneath it was, like, I had to, like, be this certain way for the work that I do, for the people that, like, will look up to me. Like, oh yeah, if I'm not this, they don't— they won't give a shit about what I'm saying. I remember that being a big driving force.

Yeah.

And so over like the last 2 years, I've been like really rebuilding like what it means for me to like work out and like have fun and be a part of a process versus like trying to go to like the end destination, just like hold it so tightly. Yeah, I'm still on the journey of healing all my bicep tendons because of it. It's way better than where it was, and it's not 100%. It's about like 90 for me. But the things that have made it more fun, I would say is twofold. Like one, to realize that like, that shit is literally all made up, quoting our friend Wes here. Like literally it's just all fucking made up, right? Like we roll up our sleeves because we think we're going to look more like those people in the movies that we watch, or at least I do. And it's so many other things. So that was a big one for me is like realizing that like, hey, this is just a made-up construct. And then number 2, like finding ways to like actually just honor my body. Like if I realize that I actually really need a workout because I'm, I'm not feeling strong enough or capable, then I'll do a workout. And I'm, I'm finding right now, like if my body's like, oh, my shoulders kind of hurt today, like maybe it's better if I rest today. Like it was just Labor Day weekend and Usually I work out Monday, Wednesday, Friday right now. I work out about 3 to 4-ish times out the week now. And I was like, it's a holiday weekend, kind of tight right now. I'm just gonna take the day off. And I felt so much happier for the rest of the week 'cause I'm like, oh yeah, I think I actually made a ton more progress this week with my shoulder health. And it's like a process to learn to listen to the body, but that's the journey I think for me. And Yeah. Again, like a lot of the men that I speak to, I think it's like a process of learning what our body needs.

Yeah. I really, really resonate with that, Smit. I, similar with similar experience in relationship with the gym, you know, I've had a lot going on in the last couple of weeks and I haven't been as regular at the gym. And I, and I noticed that it's not something that is Like, I don't, I don't judge myself for it. You know, I've gotten to a point in my life at 48 years old where I can give myself a little bit of grace, a little bit of space, knowing that I'm listening, as you said, listening to your body and kind of honoring that and what you need, whether it's physically, energetically, emotionally, whatever. And, and then this morning I was like, I woke up and I was like, I'm gonna go to the gym. And I went to the gym this morning and I got a good workout in and I feel great. And it was because I was just listening to my body and kind of heeding that call a little bit. But man, it's taken a long time to get there for me. I, the whole decade of the 2010s, I was, I think in that 10 years I ran 15 marathons. I was always, always running. I was probably in the best, well, I'll say best shape. And that's a loaded phrase, right? Like, what is a good shape? What is the best shape of your life? Like, who knows? I had very— I was very lean. I was probably the leanest that I've been in my life. And maybe I was more fragile than I'd been in my life physically because, you know, I was— of how I was approaching various different training routines and how light I was at that time, how much I wasn't doing any strength training or anything, you know, to support the running work that I was doing. So yeah, it's taken a long time for me. That's one example of different periods that I've gone through in my life in terms of my physical well-being. And it's been just recently where I've started to get that attunement and like listening to it and just being with— because even when I was, you know, running 60, 70 miles a week and was as lean as I've ever been in my life, even from when I was a teenager, it's— it still wasn't Enough. Like Freddie said, it was like I still would stand there and look at my shirtless torso in the mirror and be like, oh, you got a little bulge here, you got a little something there, you know? So I think it starts with that acceptance and then just attunement, just really listening and just feeding the body what it needs.

Yeah, I do that a few times a day. Pinched here and there. So I grew up as a pretty chubby kid. I've probably talked about this before, but yeah, I got made fun of a lot by my family, by my friends, and it still kind of like sticks with me a bit and just feeling like, oh, When people look at me, what they see is this, like, chubby, awkward kid. And it's no coincidence right now that I'm in— I'm like in a cut right now because I'm like, some part of me was like, I want to get to 12% body fat. Like, I don't want to just be ripped. I want to be like stupid ripped. I want to take off my shirt and everyone not to just be like, oh, pretty good. I want them to be like, holy fuck, how is he so sexy? So it's, yeah, I feel like it's one of those things that's just like kind of constantly been a part of my, in, in my space and a part of my thing. And it feels like one of the things I like will let go of at some point. And yeah, it's still very much a part of my life. still learning to be with it all.

Yeah. What you're kind of unlocking for me, I think I kind of buried this a little bit for a while, but I remember being a kid, probably like 4th or 5th grade, whatever that age is. And I was also a chubby kid. I think you and I like kind of talked about it offline before. And I have now this really distinct memory that I remember is I took off my shirt in, in our bathroom, like in my parents' home. Um, and I took off my shirt and I looked at myself right in the eyeballs and I kept saying, you're fat, go fix yourself, over and over and over again for like, I, I kid you not, probably like an hour until I believed it. And then I wanted to like change. And I realized like in that moment, like I could have went totally sideways. I could have got like an eating disorder. I could have got whatever. Like it was— Like really crazy. Um, and it's nuts because like I'm with a partner right now. She's like, honestly, I wouldn't mind if you had like a huge gut. Like, she's like, I would still love you. And like, it made me realize actually, as you were speaking, what she just told me the other day, man, was I will be loved no matter what. But that was like the fear. It's like, I won't be loved. Um, which is actually, you know, a little side tangent though. That's also something that media has taught me is like how to love, not just like the body stuff. Like, I think underneath it for me is like, you're going to— you want to be loved? Do this. And if you don't, then fuck you.

You won't be loved.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love this. You know, I I actually did, a couple of years ago, I did some somatic therapy work. Um, actually, it was actually somatic coaching. I did do somatic therapy also, but I also did some somatic coaching. Um, and this was a couple of years ago. I, you know, I'm in my 40s at the time. I'm in— I'm now in my mid-40s. At the time that I did this coaching, I was in my early 40s. And one of the things that came up for me during this somatic coaching was, like, the coach had me to drop in, drop from my head into my heart and into my body and listen. And one of the things that my body spoke to me Is, I'm tired of being abused. Stop abusing me in the gym. I don't— I don't want to do this like this anymore. There's another way. And so, from that point, I started exploring other ways of training than just going into the gym and just lifting heavy and—

Mm-hmm.

You know, calling that a workout. Um, you know, I, when I was in high school, I have a history as a gymnast. I did gymnastics. So I started doing more gymnastics-type movement. Um, I started doing— there's a guy on YouTube who does, uh, like male-specific yoga. It's called Man Flow Yoga. I started doing more of that. Like, and I started exploring all of these other different ways of exploring my wellness. And that's where I shifted from it being fitness and started looking at it through the lens of, this is my holistic wellness journey, not just my fitness journey.

Yeah.

And so, and Smith, I love how you're bringing in other aspects of how media shapes our masculinity conversation other than just the physicality. And I want to kind of pivot and explore that a bit as well. Like, what are some of the other areas other than just physicality that media shapes our view of masculinity?

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out a way to— do you want to go, Wes? Sorry, man. My turn.

No, sorry. Go ahead.

Rock, paper, scissors? Thanks.

Let's see you fight.

Yeah. Fight, fight, fight. Fight for it. Yeah, one of them is, uh, one of the concepts that's really coming up for me right now is like through the lens of intimacy. Um, yeah, it's been really cool actually, Freddie, because I've, I've spoken to you about this, but, um, yeah, I feel called to like share it with the world. I think you've really changed how I look at intimacy with people. Um, yeah, I was really on the journey, but I feel like you were like a really pivotal, um, person in my life that like really shifted it for me. to like allow more love. But, um, yeah, I was— I think I've been afraid of being like any other label besides, um, like heterosexual, essentially. Like, I've— I was taught at an early age, like, oh, if you're gay, you're bad. If you're whatever else, you're bad. Like, it doesn't matter what label. It's like anything else besides heterosexual is bad, bad, no, no. And, um, It's really sad, like, what that is. And I've always been empathetic and really loving, and I'm like, that's something that's never left me.

But it—

there's like that thought that was running in the back of my head is like, oh, I guess that's bad. Am I being— like, there's a second thought or a judgment or a second-guessing. And what it's also really taught me is how to not make friends, uh, media and outlets, but specifically like with men. Um, it's like, great, if you're not watching sports and drinking beer, you, you can't be friends with a dude. And, um, yeah, not that I'm like against sports or anything, but it's, um, I still watch it. I think it's a way that I can connect, but it's not the only way. Um, some of the most memorable— excuse me, memorable moments in my life are like when I've been held by other men, not even like sexually, but like just the intimacy that was there. Like, I remember all of you have held me literally at some point, crying hysterically or laughing hysterically or whatever.

Yeah.

And it's been like a process to like open up to it. But I highly related to how media, society, really like the world, how it teaches us to like close our hearts. It's taught me to close my heart. Yeah. And I actually wish there was way more content around like, how do we be whatever we want to be, but like be as open-hearted and as loving as we want to be?

Yeah, I completely agree with that, man. It's, you know, I was thinking in an earlier conversation, we were talking about like physicality and physique and that sort of a thing. I grew up in the '80s. This is the era of Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone and Jean-Claude Van Damme and these guys who always— big bodybuilder types who always had their shirts off. But it was always action movies. They're always fighting. They were always being violent. They had little to no relational skills because that's something that you really touched on there, Smith, is relating to other people, whether it's in partnership, whether it's in friendship, in whatever way it might be. But they had very, very low relational skills, and yet somehow they ended up with the hot chick and they were celebrated and the parade was thrown for them when they saved the world.

Right.

That's literally the construct that was put out. And that is such an impossible bar to attain for me, or frankly, for anyone. Right. But as a maturing boy growing into manhood, there's no way that I could possibly measure up. I already have enough not-enoughness in my life and in my head. And here's the media constantly showing me this is what good looks like. This is what a man is. And there's no way I'm ever going to measure up to it. So yeah, it was— I think for me, it really— I think similar to you, but perhaps in different ways, Smith, it stunted my relatedness. You know, I would walk into a room and I would immediately kind of like scan and look around and be like, You know, where do I fit in here? Right? Who's the alpha? Because God knows it's not me. Like, who's the alpha? And what do I got to do to not be on that person's shit list? You know, that was, that was, and it was completely, I think, informed so much. I won't say completely. I'll say informed so much by that media indoctrination. And, you know, the fact that all of our peers growing up at school and on the playground, they're all indoctrinated with the same stuff.

Right.

So if it's not media, it's being reinforced on the playground and how we choose to play with each other and learn with each other and grow with each other. So it was really no escaping it. And yeah, it was tough. And, you know, in my late 40s now, I'm getting to a point where I have access to those stronger, deeper relational pieces of myself, like you were saying, Smith, holding and being held. By other people, men, women, like whatever the situation calls for. And, and really powerfully being there for my partner and her, you know, allowing her to be there for me. And then for all of the close people in my life and for you men, it's just like, looking back now, 22-year-old me would, would no way he would be sitting in this chair having this conversation with you all.

Right.

Because it was such a different life and such a different space. Um, and I'm grateful for the growth and the maturity, and I just wish that I had had this wisdom and knowledge back then. Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel kind of called to share this. It was, um, I won't go into all the details, but I thought it was so amazing, Chris, when we were sitting at the airport together, um, and we were having lunch and, um, there was a person that fit outside of the heteronorm, and you're like, oh my gosh, that must be so hard for that person. And I like was so like caught off guard and I like was like, yeah, yeah, I bet it is really hard. And you actually gave me that. But for me, I'm like, wow, how loving is that for you to like see that? Um, so thank you like for being a model of that everywhere. And I really see like, I can appreciate how hard it's been, but I really see like who you are right now and how loving and open-hearted you are, man.

Okay, Wes, you can go now.

Yeah, kind of sitting with this thing of like, hmm, my guess is like when the world was a little scarier, less physically safe, like Probably made a lot of sense to optimize for power and strength, like to fucking, I don't know, go hunting to like protect your family physically or whatever it was. And so I don't know why. Yeah, there's something in me that's kind of like, I guess, wanting to acknowledge too, like There are likely some good reasons, like survival reasons, why like those stereotypes like evolved in the first place, and probably not doing a whole lot of good for us now. I think, yeah, one of my TV dads I mentioned was Uncle Phil. The other one was Kobe Bryant. Growing up in Southern California, just worshiping him. And he— I don't know that he was like super toxic. Well, fuck, I don't know. There's—

Maybe a little bit.

You do got a court case out there. We don't need to— but like, I feel like his thing was always like just be so locked in Be like, so like emotionally like untouchable, cold, calculated, just like, you know, be in the gym until 11 PM, wake up at 4 AM to lift weights, like isolated, like, yeah, just in the zone of building your own power and strength, not celebrating your accomplishments, no softness, no None of that, and I think I internalized a lot of that. Of like, when I'm maybe just like need a break or need to just like listen to myself or what my body is telling me, there is this like Mamba mentality Kobe thing in my head of like don't be a bitch, like just push through it. Yeah, there's also this this kind of masculine urge to believe that if I just fucking work hard enough, like everything is going to work out exactly. Exactly as I meant to, and it's not quite how it works.

Yeah. Yeah.

Smith, you have anything?

Yeah, I got lots of things. I could just talk this entire hour. It's fine. Yeah, I agree with that, man. Like, I'm a big, like, evidence person, and it's really easy for me to, like, come up with evidence of Why, like, listening to myself is not great, but then I forego another part of myself and then I eat the impact later. Like, I think everything has impacts. Yeah. And what Kobe, like, created in terms of, like, his professional life was powerful. Like, I totally believe that. And he speaks to it too. Like, there's things that he's forego that he wished he didn't forego. And I think that's the cool part, I think, around, like, human development, personal development work. Is that like it gives us more agency to choose like the places that we want to come from and more understanding and trust in ourselves and the things that we have to deal with. Because I agree with you, man. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with like pushing hard sometimes. Like, I think it's needed actually sometimes. But what is also needed is for like me to like chill, relax, connect, be, and I get to have both. And kind of going back to like what you said, Freddie, is like, how has media shaped that? I think it's like hyperdrived it in one way, but I think that I now get to like be the change that I want to see.

Yeah. You get to choose. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

This is so good. So let's, let's keep going because, you know, in previous episodes, We've touched on masculinity being this harmonious dance between both the divine masculine and the divine feminine energy, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so when we think about these, uh, these prevailing media messages, like if we were to contrast that Like, what, what role does embracing the divine feminine play in a man's overall, overall well-being and in our agency that you just spoke into to define masculinity for ourselves?

First of all, I don't think that media is incentivized to portray healthy, well-balanced masculinity.

Yeah.

Right? It's like you— we talked earlier about the marketing, and of course, they market a certain way because it works, because it sells. And the way that media is set is every movie you've ever seen, every TV show you've ever seen, has a fairly predictable arc that involves tension, dramatic tension. And I find that many ways, the way that the writers and the showrunners will generate that tension is by placing the characters at opposite ends of a pole, at a polarity, And the tension exists in between, right? So you've got these hyper-masculinized— I'll use the word masculinized in quotes, right? This is these stereotypically mannish men operating in one way and these stereotypically feminine women operating in another way and the tension that exists between them because they're not showing that those two sides being residing inside of the same person. So it's almost like you have 2 different halves of every single person. We all have masculine and feminine, 2 different halves, but they're inhabiting separate bodies on the stage and they're kind of playing out the inner dialogue that we all have, is perhaps one way to look at it. But what it does is it reinforces that, oh, this is what a man is and masculinity is. This is what a woman is, what femininity is, and ne'er the twain shall meet. When in fact, the true, the much greater level of empowerment, comes when we embrace both, when we recognize and embrace both. I think that comes much more easily to some people than others, regardless of gender. I think there are people who just have a lot, for whatever reason, whether it's nature or nurture, just have a lot more facility and access to both sides of their divine energies. I have it that the 4 of us, have pretty good access to our feminine as well as our masculine. And I think that's what has us standing here having this conversation. I don't know that your traditionally stereotypical man would really be wanting to engage in conversations like these, but that's where I think the power is. That's why I think what we're doing is so important, is to show men that it is possible, that there is agency, that there is empowerment in doing something different than perhaps what you've been taught by your dad and grandfather, uncles, cousins, or by the media of what it means to be a man, that you can actually tap into all aspects of your being, right? And embrace that feminine. And there's so much gold that comes with that. So much richness, so much access to love and nurturing and care and all the things which frankly we all want, men and women, we all want it. But men, we're just trained not to ask for it, to pretend we don't need it. But, but when you break that down, right, when you get rid of those beliefs and you get into this place of actually bringing in and calling in the divine feminine, man, it's so empowering.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like it's, it's so powerful and impactful when we give ourselves permission to explore the fullest range of our gender identity spectrum, you know, and, and, and having a tribe where we feel safe to play in that spectrum. Like, that's really, really important.

Yeah, the name of that—

go ahead, Chris.

Are you sure, Wes? Because I get to go every time we talk at the same time. Why don't you go this time?

Yeah, it reminds me of, uh, Ted Lasso scene where like 2 of the star players, both very macho dudes, they're beefing and he's like, all right, y'all gotta woman up and like go sort this out. And they're like, don't you mean man up? And he's like, no, you've been trying to do that this entire time. It's time to try the woman shit now.

Yes, yes.

And I'm like, what is that, right? Like, what is divine femininity? Like being able to drop the ego, to connect, to be open-hearted, to like really see each other on that level and come to a place of love and understanding as opposed to this kind of like, um, yeah, this kind of ego clash. And there's elements of divine masculinity in there as well, but Being able to have that dance with both the strength flavored in either divine masculine or divine feminine. It's such a powerful place to be, to be able to call upon both.

Yeah.

Yeah. Another one of those phrases that kind of spoke out to me, you keep unlodging things for me, is, uh, Like how we say like, oh, you're a dick, like you're a vagina. I was like, I love that. It's so good. But like, that's like part of the thing. It's like, that's not the training that we have in society, right? So that's super cool. Yeah, the thing around like the feminine, I think it like allows me to like put more meaning back in. This was really cool actually. I heard this from a friend/teacher in my life. We were like talking about fires and what the— this person said is that a lot of times people think that the fire is masculine because it's like roaring, it's ready, but it's actually the feminine. Like the fire is actually the feminine. Everything else around it, the container, is the masculine. And I think sometimes people forget that like the masculine is meant to like lead and hold, and the feminine is like where we get to like have our fun and energy. And if like I'm trying to force the masculine to be something that it's not, I actually like miss out or I like, I burn shit or it becomes uncontained. So, uh, yeah, I thought that was a really cool thing. And, um, yeah, for me, like leaning into the feminine has created so much more meaning in my life and purpose and drive and connection. Like there's so much more and it's kind of silly to think that, um, we don't, um, always share from that place.

And joy. Like, I can't— you look around and see how many men are walking around fucking joyless lives.

Yes.

Because they're just locked into this— the mask we live in, right? The name of that documentary. They're just locked into it. Can't find a way to take the mask off and put it down. And they're just completely joyless. They're like robots walking around doing the things that they say they need to do, that society tells them they need to do. And having no joy in their life. Joy is that fire, man. That's— and I'm— it's so important to tap into it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, Kings, I have a special treat for you.

Yes, I love treats.

Is it ice cream?

Almost.

And this kind of ties into, Chris, what you spoke about so beautifully around the media not being incentivized to share other, uh, other parts of the spectrum of masculinity. So, I want to share a scene from one of my favorite TV shows. It was called Queen Sugar. It was created by Ava DuVernay and executive produced by the legendary Oprah Winfrey.

Mm-hmm.

It aired on the Oprah Winfrey Network and can now be streamed on Hulu. And the scene I'm going to play is from the season 6 finale entitled, And You Would Be One of Them. Um, so, just to set the scene here, um, the story arc involves 2 characters, Micah and Isaiah. As they explore the nuances of identity, friendship, and male intimacy. Micah, a college student and a budding artist, develops a tight friendship with his fraternity brother, Isaiah, a fellow artist who is openly same-gender loving. A friendship that deepens throughout the season and becomes a crucial source of support for Micah. And as their bond strengthens, the lines between platonic and romantic love become blurred for Micah. He discovers a profound intellectual and emotional connection with Isaiah that he has never experienced with another man. And it forces him to confront his feelings and what they all mean. So, leading up to this season finale episode, their relationship has been a central part of Micah's journey of self-discovery. And it all culminated in this pivotal heart-to-heart conversation that I will play for you now.

How's your family doing? With everything that's going on? Better than I expected. You know, but we're not taking it laying down. We're fighting back. Yeah, that's beautiful. It really is. I had to remind myself that.

Why is that?

You know, when you're in school, you feel like you can change everything, you know? Just go in and tear it down, start over, live free. But you're starting to feel the walls, right? Yeah. The walls push back hard. Sorry, I feel like I'm talking so much. I just get that way when, when you're nervous.

Can I say something kind of direct? I think it's easier for you to embrace all of your Politics, but not so much to embrace your own reality.

Can we sit down for a second? Yeah.

Yeah.

To the extent that anybody could be sure about anything, I don't think I'm gay. But I do have feelings for you. You know, and that's confusing. I feel like my sense of self and my emotional attraction are at odds. Like, the way I feel for you in my heart doesn't match my feelings for you in other ways. So you don't want to sleep with me? I don't want to sleep with you.

I can forgive you for that.

You should know, though, I don't want anything from you, Micah.

I never did. Nothing except to be your friend, your brother.

But society tells us that men can't love each other that way. No, we don't do that. Women can be best friends, They can hold hands, they can declare their love for each other, but we can't. You know, and if we do, then we must be gay.

Exactly. You just said what I couldn't put together. Like, your brain is just so—

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

Okay.

You're so—

you really are. You are too.

I love you.

I love you too.

I get emotional every time I see that.

Yeah. Yeah.

My heart is just really tender after I saw that when it aired in 2021, and I said, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen on television. I have never seen anything like that before.

Yeah.

So, I'm curious to get you guys' response to that.

The tension, like the struggle is real. You know, what the conditioning, what we're taught with, what we're taught, how we're taught to be, what we're expected to be from our families, from peer groups, from society at large. Is in many ways a hindrance, in many ways a block to what we just saw.

Right.

I'm so grateful that this exists out there in the face of all of the other stuff that's out there of the hyper-masculinized bro culture supporting portrayals of masculinity. Because this speaks to me.

This is—

I see me in that conversation and in those men having the fear of what it might mean for really, really caring deeply about another man. Again, not in a way that questions my sexuality, just as this character, but just everything else, right, that society says we don't do. that women get to do, but we don't, that women get to have, but we don't. Um, and then just to have, you know, these 2 men in such a deep and genuine and non-sexual way profess their love for each other is like, well, this, it's, it's, it's what I want.

Yeah.

It's who I want to be. Yeah. Thank you for sharing, man. I hadn't seen that before. That's— oof.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah.

That's a gift.

My pleasure.

It's my, um, second time seeing that because of you. What did you say before we started the session? Fuck you and damn you. Um, yeah. You know what I mean?

It was thank you and damn you.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you for that too.

Yeah. Damn you too. Uh, um, yeah, you know, man, like, Freddie, that's pretty much like how I've been with you. Like, to, to have someone that's same-gender loving, like, and show me love and like me wanting to like show love back, like, believed that I like had to make it mean something more. And, um, then once I let that part of me For a lack of words, like, go. Um, there's like way more, way more love and fun that I got to have, like, with experiences with you. So thank you for showing me that. Yeah, not just the clip, but just like your love, man. And, uh, Yeah. Yeah, it's something that I also wish that, uh, everybody in the world can have, like they can separate Sexualness from intimacy. Like, intimacy doesn't have to mean anything more than just intimacy. And everybody is worthy enough for intimacy.

Yeah, I can't help but wonder what we're more afraid of, intimacy or the sex. I don't know which it is, but there's definitely fear there that's in the way. And I'm completely Griezmann. It's so beautiful to see that level of deep open-hearted intimacy between 2 humans with sex completely off the table.

Yeah. Yeah, it's really powerful. Yeah, I'm, I'm just like really flooded by recent memories that you and I have had, Chris. You and I have had Freddie and Wes. Yeah, I know I said it before, but I'm just like really thankful for all of you.

Love you, bro.

Thanks for showing me your heart, holding mine.

Yeah, love y'all. I mean, no homo, but you know.

Oh Lord, you had to throw that part in. Goddamn it.

It was a joke. I know, I know.

Ah, I love it.

Wes, what was your, what was your take on that? What, what, what came up for you when you watched that?

Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like I grew up with dudes being kind of like— straight dudes being kind of like scared of gay dudes, of like, oh, like, what if he wants to fuck me? But like, what were we scared of exactly? Like the intimacy, like Yeah, maybe like people were scared even that there was a part of them that would like be interested in that, or like what that might like unearth for them. Um, I don't know what it is, but I thankfully have generally like not had— Yeah, I guess like I've Maybe had some blocks around like intimacy with men, but it's been— I think throughout my life I've generally had at least like one or two like male close friends that I could just really be open with and like truly profess like love and appreciation for, even if it wasn't in the words, I love you, or anything like that. But yeah, really grateful for you all and how openly we can love each other. Yeah.

Anything else anyone want to share?

Hey.

I love you all. I love you all deeply. That's all.

Yeah.

Same.

Same.

Echo that, man.

Yeah.

Well, as we wrap up another enriching journey and conversation, I invite us all to be mindful of all of the energy we consume and subsequently the energy we carry. Let's be intentional about embracing and embodying an energetic signature Grounded in what I like to call now love.

Now love.

Now is all there is. Now is all that exists. And love is the only energy that's real. And I want to take this moment to thank each of you, Smith, Chris, and Wes, For your love, for seeing me, for embracing me, for loving me, all of me. And I love you all so, so deeply. Join us next time as we continue exploring our experiences, expressing our hearts, and expanding our connection to support, uplift, And empower one another. To show the world what is possible when kings unite.