Embracing Initiation, Fatherhood, and Rites of Passage with Bob Conlin | S02 E03

All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of When Kings Unite, the podcast where we explore masculinity as medicine, along with other pieces of human development. And I'm your host today, Smit. And of course, we have our kings, Chris, Wes, and Freddie.

Hello.

But today we got a special one. We got another person. His name is Bob Conlon, a true king. He's a master coach, a men's leader, someone who has walked the path and also creates a space and guides other men through it. So let's get ready. Let's strap in because this is gonna be an incredible conversation and we can't wait for you all to experience it.

Alrighty.

Fuck.

Thank you so much, man, for coming into the space. Yeah, coming on our podcast. It's really cool to have you here with like Wes and Freddie and Chris. And yeah, I've just been really excited to have you in here. And quite honestly, like just a little bit nervous because usually like Um, the spaces that I'm in with you, you're usually like leading them. Um, and so I'm like, man, I get to like, like, this is kind of like our sacred space. I'm like, oh, I get to like hold this conversation, um, you know, with all of us today. So thanks, man, for being here. Also, fuck you for making me feel nervous and, you know, all this stuff.

Yeah, brother.

Yeah.

Don't fuck it up, man.

I'll do it. Listen, man, I'll try it. I'll try it.

Yeah.

Pressure's on, bro. Make sure you do it all right.

All eyes are on me. It's all on me today.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, man, I, you know, there's— I feel like there's so much that I could like share about you, like the impact that like you've had on me. I know you've like obviously held a lot of space for Chris and Wes too. You're getting to know Freddie. But before I like kind of dive into like my experience of you, I would love for you maybe just to share a little bit about like Like who you are, what you do in the world, like, yeah, anything you kind of like want to share with our greater audience.

Yeah, yeah, thanks. And it's really great to be here. I appreciate the invite. And it's good to just be with other men and in conversations that matter. So thanks for that. And thanks for saying like up the top, I'm a little nervous, you know, like I feel like when we get to speak what's actually going on with us in any container, we're already ahead of the game. 'Cause we're being honest and vulnerable with ourselves so we can be that then for others. And really, that's really been my whole approach to all of this, is to have my experience of what it means for me to be a man, a father, a husband, a leader, a son, a brother, have that authentic experience be something that guides me and that can also impact others in a positive way. way. So yeah, I think a little bit about me. So I'm 51. I have a 6-year-old son. I call myself an old dad. And becoming a father was, I think, something I've resisted my whole life for lots of reasons, but mainly I lost my father when I was 7 years old.

Yeah.

And he was 51. So I'm at this really beautiful place of initiation for me of becoming the age of when my father passed away and having a child that was almost the same age that I was. And I really feel like my initiation into this work came through becoming a father, having this little boy, this little baby look at me and The thing I got present to is like the man that he becomes is going to be influenced by the man that I am. And, you know, what's the example I'm setting and what am I, what am I passing down to him? You know, and that, that was really my catalyst because I wasn't, I wasn't doing great. I wasn't doing well. I was really struggling as a father. We were— he was a pandemic baby. We had a really traumatic pregnancy, and it was really hard, and I was just really struggling. And, you know, I say that my son has been my greatest, like, teacher, greatest coach, greatest leader, greatest therapist. Like, he has been a catalyst for so much of my work these past 6 years that has let me be able to step into the space and then—

Mm-hmm.

You know, then not lead it, you know. And man, I'm still curious. I'm still remaining teachable. Like, I don't have any of this figured out, but, you know, I'm just trying to be a little bit better, you know, every day, kind of me against me. And I don't always get it right, but, you know, I try to get it better. So yeah, I live in Chicago with my beautiful, patient, loving, powerful, extraordinary wife, Shawna. She's also been a huge catalyst for my You know, my growth and healing and, you know, loving someone so much in her and in my son is terrifying and scary, you know, and it's, it's a, it's a big ask. It's a big ask for me to like pour so much of that into because it's, it's, it doesn't make sense. Like, I shouldn't be that unprotected, you know, or that unguarded, but to be able to love them so much, to be willing to lose them. Is, is like where I, and I almost have, you know, and like I had to learn that backwards. I had to get to the point to like losing them, them, them very, like very close to losing both of them to like fully surrender into my love for them. So anyway, I'm very proud of being a father and husband, I think is just basically what I wanna say. And then the way that they love me is a beautiful mirror for me to be like, man, if these amazing people love me so much, I must be, you know, there must be something about me. You know, I must— it helped me learn how to love myself, that these amazing people love me so much. So, um, yeah, like you said, uh, my initiation to men's work, um, happened about 6 years ago because I became a father and I got really connected to how alone I was and how I was running on my self-sufficiency, how I was trying to figure it out and do it faster, better, harder.

Right.

I got this kind of thing and I just, I bottomed out, you know, I bankrupted emotionally, physically. And I knew that wherever I was going, I couldn't do it alone. And I started, you know, getting men together online and just being in conversations that, you know, moved the needle forward. And then I got present to, well, if I'm going to be like holding this space for other men, I need to be held as well. So I started, you know, attending as a participant my own men's groups and, you know, rest is history. You know, I think every facet of my life has been impacted in a positive way by getting to be with other men in my life. And like I alluded to earlier, like I learned very early on that men you love leave you and they hurt you, you know, with my father passing. So I saw no value in having men in my life in a meaningful way until I became a father. And I was like, I kind of had to now, you know? And I don't know, I think, I don't know if I'm unique in this as a man, but I need to be beat over the head quite a bit before I'll be willing to have it go a different way. And, uh, you know, I've got lots of, lots of experiences in my life in that where I had to get, you know, um, my ass kicked a little bit before I was willing to have it go differently.

So, yeah. Yeah, really, like, appreciate you saying that because, um, like, uh, I think there's so much that I could share around my experience of you, but I think the last thing that you actually just said is Probably like touches me the most. It's like, oh yeah, I've sometimes I'm dumb as fuck. Like, it's just like that lesson needs like spirit or wherever, like universe, people in my life like need to just show me it, you know? And I think it's like the thing that I've talked about on this podcast, all of us have talked about this on this podcast is just like being open to the, you know, the lessons that, that kind of come along with it. So yeah, man, thanks. Thanks for sharing all that. You know, it's—

Yeah.

It's really cool to like hear like a high-level overview of like kind of what you do, you know?

Yep.

Yeah, so I mean, a little bit more of what I do. So, you know, I'm a, I'm a master certified coach. I help people get results in their life. Um, I lead men's retreats, I lead men's groups, I lead men's transformational coaching programs. Um, yeah, and I, you know, I enjoy and have a lot of fun, fun doing all of that. Um, the retreat work is where I get to like tap into, you know, my spiritual side and, and host ceremony around fire, which It's been a really beautiful exploration I've been on these last few years. So, you know, I was thinking the other day, I was like, you know, how grateful I am for the life that I have. You know, like it all works. I'm present to all of it. You know, it might not look, may not feel perfect all the time, and I don't think life ever will, but like I'm in process. I'm working towards all of it everywhere.

Yeah.

And I'm just like so grateful for that. And I'm doing that with a, you know, a whole group of men around me keeping me accountable, keeping me grounded and connected and reminding me of who and what I am. And, um, man, I wish every man could experience, you know, that level of support and clarity and direction and focus and, you know, walking that, that path, that prayer for their life. Like, yeah.

Yeah, man. Yeah. And yet we look around the world and we see so many men who aren't. From your perspective, what gets in the way? What's there that's, that's the obstacle for men to start their own journey this way?

Yeah, I feel I can speak to my experience, you know, like, I don't know if it's the experience of every man, but, you know, with the men that I've worked with and, you know, again, with my own experience, it's— I think it starts with just a lack of awareness of how it could be. That we are raised and brought up in a particular way, and that dynamic is very different across all family systems and communities and cultures and where we come from. And there's not an emphasis placed on the value of men doing work like this. And when I say work, it's really men being in community. Men being together, all gnawing on the same thing or looking at something that's meaningful and impactful. We don't have, I think, a kind or loving system that holds men accountable. It's typically we're held to account through pain, incarceration, trauma, consequence. I think what we're really lacking as men in the world is this idea of initiation, this idea of— mentorship, of a place where we get to bring our boys along so they get to see what's possible. And I feel like it's shifting, but I'm also in it, right? So, I feel like the paradigm of— really what we're talking about is masculinity in general starting to shift to start to see the value in this. It's not just like, You know, while it happens, it's not just men, like, in the woods banging a drum, howling at the moon, you know? That happens, but it's what happens, um, with that. It's the community. It's— it's— I know I'm no longer carrying my questions alone.

Yeah.

I know I'm no longer feeling terminally unique and, like, isolated, right? The man right next to me just said the thing that I've been feeling and thinking for the last 20 years that no one has— that I've never told anybody. Right. And it's like that, that brotherhood, that community starts to come together and men start to feel like themselves and they start to feel, I don't know if they'd say this, but they start to feel safe to open up and to be a human being before a man.

Yeah.

Or before anything else. So, you know, any role or mask that they wear, they just get to be human first. And that human has needs and desires and wishes and fears, and they get to just freely express that.

Thank you for sharing that. And like, I was just thinking about this a couple of days ago, how it's very interesting that the word that we use in the English language to describe malehood or manhood has the word mask in it.

Right?

Yeah.

So that just like came up when I was listening to you speak just now. I'm curious to learn more about Like one of the things that you shared when you were talking about all that you do, all that you have accomplished.

Yep.

What really stuck out to me that resonated with me was this sentiment of it's ongoing.

Mm-hmm.

It's a process. It's not a— we talk about this all the time on this podcast that, you know, manhood, malehood, whatever it is, whatever we call it, it's not a destination. It's an ongoing process. It's an ongoing evolution, right? So what has that evolution been like for you? And especially from one MCC to another, we have all these titles.

Oh, come on, guys.

Right?

What about the rest of us?

Come on.

Grown-ups are talking.

Hey, shut the fuck up, man.

Get outta here.

Let's go to the—

let's go to the kids' table. Old ass man. Fucking old ass motherfucker.

But no, like, what part of my process for even going that route to MCC was like, wow, like learning what I don't know and accepting what I don't know and allowing myself the room and the space to, to play. in that process of not knowing.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think I saw this, you know, in like to look at the specific like coaching credentials or certifications that, you know, we have or that are out there through the International Coaching Federation. Like there's 3 levels: ACC, which is Associate Certified Coach, PCC, which is Professional Certified Coach, and then MCC, which is Master Certified Coach. And For the listeners who don't know what the heck we're talking about. So I saw this, that, you know, if you're an ACC coach, you can, you can, you know it, like, you know what coaching is. If you're a PCC, you can do it, you can actually perform it. And then if you're MCC, you live it. And that, that has really, like, made sense as I'm, like, looking back on my own life and evolution. You know, I feel like You know, in this, in my growth and development, you know, I feel like I'm a lifelong learner and experiencer. So I'm not who I was yesterday at all. You know, like life is going to give me different opportunities all the time, different experiences to, to learn. You know, particularly, you know, I think if the bigger life gets or the more people are in my life, the more opportunities I have for that. There are more things I say yes to. It's the more opportunities to, you know, to learn about myself and You know, a lot of what we've done with Alchemy of Men, it was, it was really born out of, you know, being able to provide a place where we get to just be curious in our exploration of what it means to be men and like what it is that we want, what's in our way, and what we're going to do about it. Right. And I, you know, I found a lot of, a lot of stuff in men's space that was prescriptive or there was like a leader or someone that has the tool or the answer and And then they're creating disciples or they're creating followers to do what this guy did, to get the result that he got. And we weren't interested in that conversation because we wanted to have way more space and way more opportunity for the man, which I feel is one of the most powerful rites of initiation is for the man to figure it out himself. But to do it in a way that's like safe and structured and where there's additional inputs into like his process. So if he's thinking or growing or doing a certain way, there's other men like challenging that in a way. You know, hey, you say you want this, but you're showing up this way. What do you notice about that? You know, like, and using that, that coaching mindset, like through this, this whole process of, you know, evolution and into what it means for, you know, us all to be men, you know. And I think, you know, along with that, man, is like, you know, why, you know, I'm holding a lot of space everywhere, you know, particularly in the work that I'm doing with men. I'm only maybe 1 or 2 steps ahead, if that. And I don't even like to say the word ahead, but like, um, I'm still learning in that process.

I'm—

I learn every day I'm on a call with a client. I learn every time I'm on a men's retreat. You know, I learned something about myself. I learned something about what it means to lead, to hold space, to like support. And, you know, I think the, the moment I think I have it or I have the way, I'm done.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and one of my, one of my mentors I learned from a couple of years ago, who was actually on our last retreat, which was like really cool to have him Bear with me, says this. He's like, the number one barrier to transformation. So like the number one barrier that stops us from growing, right, is what we know and being so right about it.

Yep.

And like, you know, I really take that into heart of just like, stay curious, you know, stay open, you know, have that that student mindset and have a mind full of questions, you know, and a heart full of questions. And, you know, with that curiosity, bring loving awareness to it.

Yeah.

You know, so if you're in a challenge or something's not working, instead of like fighting against it or putting on your armor or grabbing your shield and sword, it's like, just bring some curiosity to it. Like, what is my What does my kid actually need here? What does my partner need here? What do I need here? You know, if I take the energy out of it and just look at like the facts of the dynamic of what's happening, it's like, what's, what's actually here?

Yeah.

What is it? You know? And anyway, I don't know if I'm going off on a tangent, but, um, I don't, you know, I don't know what I don't know.

Yeah.

And, you know, the moment where I've, you know, a few moments, the many moments in life where I thought I knew, And, you know, I got my ass handed to me.

So.

Yeah, I feel like, um, I don't know if I can speak for all of us, but I can definitely speak for myself. Like, me too. Like, anything, anytime I literally felt like, oh, I got like, this is going to be fine. I got this shit. It's locked down. It's, it never ends up being that way. Um, and, you know, that's, I think, like something that, um, something kind of like came over me as you were talking is just like my experience, like around you. I, I think you've done a really beautiful job of, like you mentioned, like the MCC thing of like living it. I think you've done a really beautiful job of living through the, the initiation, like everywhere in your life.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and providing a space for it. And not to say that like the teacher-student dynamic that you were describing is bad. Like I've been a part of those spaces. I think they've They provide a lot of value. And there's actually just something deeper that I've noticed and I've experienced when it's like the answers are, are also coming from me. Like at the core of it, it's coming from me.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, you know what it naturally kind of, uh, comes up for me in that it's like our rites of passage, you know, that you held space for, for, um, me and Wes, we kind of like chatted about it a little bit on this podcast, but, um, Yeah, I mean, like, I've been a part of an Alchemy of Men retreat and that experience with you, and I can just tell you, like, hands down that that was some of the most powerful work, you know, that I've, I've done on myself. And so, um, I first wanna say thank you, you know, and acknowledge you for, like, like representing that, like creating a space for men to do that. And, you know, uh, with TMC, like the other groups I'm a part of, like That's something that I've learned, you know, from you. So thank you.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And thanks, you know, thanks for trusting me in that, man. You know, it's like oftentimes, like, we'll say yes, but we don't really know what we're saying yes to.

Yeah.

You know, and even me as like holding that space, like, I, you know, I don't, I don't know how this is going to go.

Yeah.

You know, but like, you know, trusting who I am, uh, trusting who we are, trusting our relationship and, you know, trusting spirit. Um, you know, trusting, you know, the experiences that I've had that will, they will like influence the current experience I'm having.

Yeah.

Um, and it's like, it's going to work out, you know, it's, it's going to work out.

Yeah.

But you mentioned like something a little bit there. I think one of the most powerful things that we can do is not tell people what to do or not, not tell them the way or show them the way. And that, that's where that like curious or like coaching mindset is really powerful. And you think, I think particularly amongst men, there's a problem, we want to fix it. That's just how we're wired. And I think in this developmental space, it's really, it's easy to lean into that of like just giving knowledge or telling folks what to do. But the power of the transformation isn't there then because that person hasn't saw their solution themselves. And, you know, through that trembling lip said that, you know, said that scary thing or declared that scary action or that result, or, you know, through the wobbly legs, you know, moved forward or walked forward into that thing. And that's where I feel like that the change or the transformation or the growth is really going to like sit. It's really going to like— transform that individual because they have the agency and the autonomy to choose it themselves.

Freddie, he said your favorite word, Freddie.

I heard it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Agency. It's all about agency.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's, you know, I think that that's the balance because I think, I think men, you know, men are, men are craving like a father. You know, grown men, like we're craving a mentor. We're craving like, you know, that, that, hey, tell me the way, show me the way, teach me the way. Right. And I feel like, you know, I feel like a lot of times in coaching or life, we look at the both and, you know, can, can I guide but not push, you know, or only push when it needs to? Or like, can I, can I open up a number of paths and let You know, it's like choose your own adventure. Let that person choose, you know, and then push, you know, push them down that path until, you know, it makes sense or it doesn't make sense. But, you know, it's really, I think, I think the real transformation comes when we can choose it and we choose what works for us.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I, what I hear you really outlining is almost like a theory or a concept of Right, space holding and providing the channels, the avenue, the agency, and empowering the person that you're with to kind of make their own choice and to declare their own agency and process it and move through it and step into it. And one of the things that I heard you declare, and I tend to agree, that's missing for men is initiation, is those rites of passage.

Mm-hmm.

Which, when you look at ancestral ones, they were fairly There was a lot of structure there. There was a lot of different tribes would have certain things that at a certain age that the elders would take the boy out into the woods or to the forest or to the ocean or wherever and perform for a certain amount of time this specific ritual rite of passage. So the structure is there. So I'm wondering if you can speak to that a little bit and specifically in the context of—

Yeah.

Smit referenced it, and we've referred to it on the podcast, but I haven't heard Like the story. I've been waiting for this moment to hear from all 3 of you.

Yeah.

What your experience was several weeks ago when Smith and Wes went and joined you. I don't know where, I don't know for how long, but to have their own kind of rite of passage facilitation that you were holding that space for them. So I'd love to hear a little bit, kind of a concrete example of how that initiation process works, bringing in the agency of allowing them to choose their own adventure while you're providing the direction and the structure.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I think, you know, yeah, I think as you mentioned, like traditionally there was, you know, you know, you turned a certain age or you had a certain experience and then that was, um, the start of the initiation.

Right.

And like the elders, the men would come in and they'd, you know, like break into the hut in the middle of the night or whatever. And like take the boys from the mothers and, you know, the moms are in on it. No, no, don't take my baby. And like, They'd run them out and based on their lineage and their history, they would put these boys through a process. And I feel we've totally lost that. We've lost so much of our tribal nature, our communal nature. And I think that initiation process was just one way that men would get together with other men. We used to go hunt together, we used to go to war together, we used to go forage together, whatever it was, we've lost all that. And I feel like now in modern times, I guess, a lot of our initiatory experiences are like, oh, when I get my driver's license, or when I get a job, or when I lose my virginity, or when I get my first paycheck, whatever it is. And those are all— Like earned or achieved kind of external experiences versus that initiatory process that happens inside where like, you know, there's a shift, there's a shift in experience that I have and I now relate to myself as a man because I say so. And I feel like that choice is Like, one of the most powerful things that can happen for, you know, a man is to say, I'm a man because I say so. I say so, you know? So when, um, when the, you know, when Smit approached about this as a possibility, you know, I was, um, you know, in, you know, in my, uh, in my like morning practice, you know, meditation ritual, and I was just like kind of tapping in.

Mm-hmm.

Um, because I've never been asked to like facilitate this specifically, you know, I feel like it kind of happens on the side, but a specific, you know, rite. And the thing, the thing I got present to was like, man, if I tell Smith and West this is the thing that they are doing, like I'm, I'm robbing them from that experience, that, that experience of what, of that agency of choice of saying, I'm a man, you know, I get to be a man now or whatever.

Right.

And I got like the hit, the download of like, have them tap into like their ancestral DNA, like their lineage of their traditional rites of passage for boys into men. And if it speaks to them, let's try and recreate that experience, knowing that, you know, You know, in my mind, like, we could never do it as, uh, to honor, like, the tradition as, you know, as perfectly as we'd want to, just knowing, like, you know, what we have. But can we create the essence of it? Can we create the experience of it that, that these 2 men can feel themselves in it, go through their rites, and then come to that point and, and just choose it? Like, yes, I'm— You know, I'm stepping into man now, you know. So, um, but I was really grateful for that, that download of like, um, let's let them choose it and, and create it versus I'm taking you guys both in the woods, we're gonna go, you know, sleep outside, not eat or drink for 5 days, and then we're gonna do this. And I'm like, who am I to say that? You know, so let's tap into the, the wisdom the ancestral knowledge, that ancestral technology that's already there, and let's see if we can recreate it the best that we can in a cabin in the woods in Wisconsin.

Yeah. My mom was really freaked out when you broke into our house and kidnapped me.

Stole you.

Yeah. Somehow you left that out, Bob.

I prepared her.

No, yeah, it was really amazing. Um, even just to hear Bob's perspective on like, what, what is a rite at its core? Like what is becoming a man at its core? And so much of this weekend experience was built around this idea of telling the little boy inside us like, hey, I love you. I got you. I'm in the driver's seat now. You're still with me, but I'm not gonna let you like wrestle control of the steering wheel anymore.

Mm-hmm.

And in researching my heritage of, yeah, ancient Chinese or Taiwanese rites, There were 2 that stood out to me. One was kind of more the classic, like, you know, you do all this fucking crazy shit. You climb up a knife ladder, fucking walk on hot coals, all of that. And with that one, I was like, okay, I don't need more hardship to like prove that I'm a man, to prove that I'm capable of handling shit. I've been known, I can fucking handle shit.

Yeah.

But there was something in that of like the solitude of it where I was like, okay, there's something there of like really being with myself and confronting myself that I like. And then there was this other cool one from, I think it was like the Wu tribe before where they, it was built around getting into like a trance-like state. And what, yeah, they would get like visions and there would be something that came to them that ended up being this kind of initiation. It was fucking insane. Yeah. Bob was like, yeah, I think we can get there like through drumming. And I was like, okay, yeah, sure. We'll, we'll see what happens. And Bob and Smit just were beating this, this buffalo drum.

For like 90 minutes, bro.

For like 90 fucking minutes.

My arm is still tired.

Yeah. Sorry, the doorbell's going off. But yeah, it was this crazy experience where somehow I had this vision of going down through this stone portal into the underworld. Different mentors and people and tour mentors kind of like were there and like holding me in this like crater of lava, which I understood to be like trial or like growth and transformation through trial. I, yeah, I'd actually love to kind of hear— okay, fuck, this fucking doorbell's going off. I need to answer this thing. But yeah, Snail, you wanna take it away?

Yeah, man, your meal's here. I was just about to say the same thing. Um, yeah, I mean, like, you know, one of the things that I, um, will say, like, from Wes's experience that I, um, that I know, Bob, that you're super connected to, I know Freddie and, uh, Chris are also super connected to, is like this idea of spirit. Um, and I don't want to like share Wes's story, but like one of the things that kind of capture it is like, I remember one of the nights you were like, hey, um, ask spirit it to like call you in something and be it like a dream. And I had the craziest fucking dreams, right? Like, and, um, wow, it was just so wild, uh, to kind of hear like, or feel more so the, the experience of like spirit also in those types of experiences. So while Wes is, uh, getting his food, um, maybe creating a little bit of space for like spirit right now, whether it's like you, Bob, I know you're super connected and obviously all of us too, like our experience with spirit and how it also kind of plays into like this idea of like choosing to be a man? Like, what does that actually mean? And how do they like, how do they connect, you know, to each other?

The thing I'm— the thing that's coming up for me is like, is is to trust it, you know. You know, I think for me, so much of, you know, my experience of myself and, you know, the, the roles that I play as, you know, husband, father, leader, business owner, a lot of that's, you know, it's a big ask. And, you know, for me, having Um, like spirit as a, a guide, a resource, um, has been like really— it's allowed me to trust myself more, trust others more, trust like this more. And, um, the thing that's coming up for me was, you know, when, um, we were supporting Wes and his, you know, his experience. of getting into like an ecstatic state, a trance state, to tap into that, you know, the wisdom of his ancestors and, you know, what was there for him. You know, I was like, I don't, I don't know if this is gonna work. You know, if like what we're gonna do, like I know that, you know, I've led plenty of drum journeys and I've been through them and I know like the power of the beat and like, you know, the power of the drum and how it can take you and where it can take you, but I don't know if it's going to work, you know, for this. And I just kept hearing like, just trust, you know, just trust that it's, it's going to work. And I remember in like the moment I was, I was definitely right there with you, Wes, like, and, you know, I was riding that drum with you. And there was a moment where like, I, I didn't know how long we were going for. And I like opened my eyes and I was like, oh, I should probably like Check in on Wes. Check in on Wes. And I look over and like, you're laying down and like, like massive rapid eye movement. Like your eyes were closed in there. I was like, okay, he's in it. And I was like, see, like he's, he's gonna get to where he needs to go. You know, just trust, trust, trust, trust, trust.

Yeah.

Um, so I think I answered your question, but like the, um, it just, it's allowed me to trust all of, all of this.

Yeah.

All of it more.

Yeah.

Yeah, I feel that. And, um, you know, Wes, I think this is, uh, if you're willing to like share around the, like the animals, right? Like the trust piece. 'Cause I think that was like such a big thing. 'Cause like, um, you say this a lot, Bob. It's like this work doesn't make any sense, right? Like to go out to the woods with a bunch of bros, right? And like talk around a fire or beat a drum or whatever. It kind of doesn't make sense. And it makes sense all at the same time. So like trusting in that like process of, um, but yeah, Wes, I think like that might be really powerful if you're like willing to, to share for it. Hopefully I'm not overstepping.

No. Yeah, I appreciate it. I, well, first it was the, the door was my Airbnb host giving me a bottle of champagne, so that was sweet. Nice. Um, yeah, but, uh, there were a few, I guess a few different like animal, um, things in my, in my rite. And first was like in the kind of trance of it all, there was part, this part where there was like this black shadow. I saw this black shadow like flitting through the forest. And at times I like was the shadow. At times I was like chasing it. And it turned out this was like this black puma. Which I have since learned are not actually black in nature, but yeah, it was like in this vision and it led me to this clearing of like Puma elders just kind of sitting there watching me. And I just felt that they were kind of calling on me to embody my power. And so by this point I was like moving more and kind of standing, even though like my knees felt like really wobbly. I like went and grabbed this gigantic fucking tree branch that was there and just planted into the ground and just kind of like felt the strength of all of that. Um, and then at some point when it felt fully embodied, I like threw it on the ground and kind of like indignantly asked these Puma elders like, okay, show me. Like what it means to be a man. And then all they said was, you already know. And then I was like, oh, I just fucking fell back into the grass and was like, oh right, I already fucking know like what it means to be a man, what it means to embody manhood. Um, and after that was the time where I would spend like an hour or so on my own. And we had been talking that morning about like playing the manifesting game and like seeing what we could manifest. And we were in this like cabin in the woods. And at that point I was like, I wanna see some deer.

Yeah.

I think that would be really cool. Um, and we hadn't seen any deer. We were just beating this fucking, these drums for so long. We, we had like fire. I like, I feel like there were plenty of reasons for there to not be deer, but I was sitting by myself and at a certain point I was kind of like asking spirit, like, okay, like show me what it is I'm supposed to really get from this experience of solitude right now. And then like 30 seconds later, I saw a deer just like pop up by the house and then like run towards me and then split off once it got within like 10 feet of me. And then another deer like running through the trees. And I was like, holy fuck. Like, that is absolutely insane. And then even then I was like, okay, that was fucking cool. But like, what is it I'm supposed to get from this experience? And then it was like, oh right, I'm supposed to get that like magic is fucking real. Spirit is on my side. And if like I'm aligned enough in what I want, like the universe will work with me on all of that.

Yeah.

Um, actually, yeah, tacking onto that, like after the whole experience, um, I was like, telling Smith, like, on the way back, I was like, I want to manifest, like, I want to see, like, an animal where, like, you shouldn't see an animal. Like, I want to see an animal in, like, a really random place. And then we were, as we were driving, we saw a family of fucking flamingos on the side of the road.

In Wisconsin.

In Wisconsin.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And to me, like, I'm, I'm from California. Like, I'm born and raised in California my whole life. And so I was like, maybe this is some fucking Midwestern Shit, I don't know. Um, but then we looked it up and it was like, no, there's absolutely zero flamingos in Wisconsin. In fact, there was like an article of like, oh yeah, in 2023 there was like this, like these 5 flamingos were seen and like that was a huge fucking deal. We're like, did we see those fucking 5 flamingos specifically?

Dude.

Yeah, it was a really beautiful, crazy experience.

Yeah. And at the same time, like Bob was telling us at the You know, the experience, he's like all about this like green sports car, right, Bob? That's what it was, right? And he said he saw a green sports car also on his drive back. So it like reconnected everything from like flamingos, deer, green sports car that you're not supposed to— like, it's all this stuff, like calling in and like trusting in it was fucking crazy one, but like also, you know, so, so powerful. But yeah.

There was I think, like, Wes, when I remember, I remember the conversation and you were kind of in this spot of like, is this all bullshit or not?

Yeah.

Right. And it was just like, test it, like, call it in, like, call in what you want to see, you know, call in what you want to experience. And, you know, one of my, one of my mentors and teachers, he's he always says, he's like, focus on what you want, not what you don't want. Call it in. And so I was like, oh, there's a game we could play. And I was like, this game of manifesting or calling that experience in. And then submit reference. I'd play this game with neon green sports cars. It's not a very popular color for those. And You know, I noticed that they show up when I'm like looking for them essentially, and when I need them, you know, when I, it's just like, and it reminds me that I'm on the path and like, just keep going. That's the message I always hear, you know? And I remember when I was leaving the hospital, when my wife and son were in the hospital during the pandemic, it's like, you know, we're going to be okay. You know, what's all this for? And then like, right past me, it was this like neon green sports car. And I've got a thousand stories like that, but it's, um, it was, I was just so like, um, just happy for you, Wes. Like when, um, like we had Wes go sit in the woods for a couple hours and then we, you know, came to find him and, um, he's like, I saw a deer. And I was just like, so happy for you. And I was just like, of course you did, you know, at the same time, you know, just, it was just like a really special moment. Yeah.

Yeah. It was.

And then that call, that call on the way home, you're like, oh my gosh.

The flamingo.

Ridiculous.

Couldn't make it up, dude.

Couldn't make it up.

We did like a triple take. I still remember it. It was so vivid because we're like, what? And we like looked at each other. There's no way. Look back at each other. Those fuckers are moving. So it's like, you know, you can't make it up, you know? But, um, yeah, I'll just go like kind of, um, like a kind of like a pinpointed arrow in my experience, you know, like, um, Originally at the start, like, I was like, I know this is important, like this idea of practicing, like, what I want to get into. And I was telling Bob and Wes yesterday, we were like doing an integration call after a few weeks after the experience. And I was like, yeah, I know I kept saying like, this isn't the thing that's gonna shift me. It's the practice, which is indefinitely true. And Even though I had some skepticism, that experience changed me forever.

Hmm.

Because it was actually the practice in real time of something and also putting meaning into it. And, you know, it's my personal belief that, um, wherever we put meaning is where we put life. And, um, Because I got to like take the breath, like take that, that weekend, you know, to like really get clear on like what I wanted, what I wanna step into. The transformation was like happening in real time, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, you know, part of the reason, and, uh, I wanna be very clear when I say this too, it's like part of the reason that I'm nervous, or I was nervous at least, you know, when starting this podcast, not because I, I believe that Bob's better than me, even though he'll try to tell you guys that, you know.

It's not hard.

So don't believe him. Don't believe him. Um, but, um—

I don't have to actually speak him.

Yeah. It's just felt. No, we do. We got to kick this guy off before, you know, just kidding. But, uh, you know, the reason that I felt nervous because like he, he poured into me. I'm like, man, I, I also wanna give back. But the cool part is I kind of knew that, right? Like, by asking him to do the experience, like, I know he would also, like, be a part of the experience. He wouldn't just tell us what to do. He would be actively learning with us. And I think for me, that's what a man really does, right? He's, like, always willing to be both leader and follower.

Yeah.

It's like the dichotomy, like Bob talks about, like the Jaguar spirit. It's like, you know, being both. And I really got that, you know, from the weekend. And man, what a crazy experience. Like, I don't even need to give the details because honestly the details don't matter, but it's the result of that. I think that's really more impactful. Like, yes, a white dude from Chicago, an Asian man from California, and a brown dude from Wisconsin all got together and we all learned something from each other. You know, and last, you know, the last few recordings we've been talking about like ancestral healing. It's like, what's more healing than that? Like to learn, like there's no way that my ancestors would have known what Wes would have done for his rites of passage, you know, back in, back in his day, back in, back in time. Bob holding space like that, you know, it's like there's so many lessons along the way and, um, What I really got from the weekend was slowing down to listen to them, you know, and trusting in that process. And like, man, what's more, what's more powerful than that, right? And, um, I would be now remiss if I didn't like bring this back to like men's work. It's like, you know, men's work kind of doesn't make sense, as Bob likes to say. And so, um, You know, whether it's Bob or any of us, it's like, how does trust play into like the transformation? You know, 'cause like I have my own experience, but I, I think by us speaking into it, like it might call another man forward into getting that thing he maybe is too scared to grab or doesn't believe is possible.

I'm actually curious, like, if you don't mind pivoting, Like what actually has shifted for you since the rite?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, thanks for calling in because I know, I know, you know, you know, the things that have shifted for me is like paying attention to my body. I was saying yesterday there's like 10 times more receptors from the rest of our body to our head than from our brain to the, to the body. And I'm paying attention to my body, which is like causing me to like not run amok everywhere. Like I'm slowing down, paying attention. I've quit my full-time job and I'm now doing another job that I've created for myself doing full-time human development work. I don't want to put this on the podcast, but I have a really amazing opportunity. that just got called in, you know, yesterday to work for a pretty major organization. And I'm stoked, you know, and it all came from like using my voice. I'm paying attention to what I eat. I have 10 vows that I wrote. And so like, it's a daily practice for me to like look at it. I'm praying more. I'm saying the thing that I want to more with people and being more honest with myself. Like, those are the impacts. And Um, thanks for saying that. And also like, you know, the duality of it is like, I'm still not perfect. So it's like the practice of though, of slowing down to take a look at like, where am I unaligned still? Is there more? And that's, I think, the most powerful impact for me is like, I'm slowing down to be like, oh, is that thing that I just created what I actually intended?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd add to like, um, owning your value in this as well.

Yeah.

Like the impact that you make just simply by being you.

Yeah.

Yeah. Thanks, man. Appreciate that.

Um, so much. Thank you all for sharing that entire experience with us and all of our viewers and listeners. Um, one of the things that really resonated with me, Bob, uh, when you began sharing about, you know, how you lead, uh, such, you know, rite of passage, uh, journeys, I really appreciated you framing it as, you know, creating this space or container for men to say, I. decide when I am a man.

Mm-hmm.

It's not someone outside of me determining whether I'm a man or not. Um, that really, really resonated with me. And I guess my question is, you know, for, for, for men who are listening who may be more advanced in age, um, who may still not feel like they have defined for themselves what their manhood or malehood or masculinity looks like or feels like, who may be interested in men's work, whether it's Alchemy of Men, whether it's their own rite of passage ceremony? What would you say to men who are— more advanced in age who may feel like, oh, well, maybe I'm too old for this type of work. That's something that younger kids do. What would you say to that?

A lot, probably. The thing that comes up for me, I had 2 initial responses. One was like, get busy living. It's never too late.

Yeah.

And the other one was like, what a cop-out. Like, I'm too old. You know, like, man, we've— every day, every breath, every day is a new opportunity, right? For us to step in or to create the experience of life that we want, the experience of ourselves as we want, you know, all of it. Like, if we're on the right side of the dirt, You know, like we have, there's opportunity. So don't like, you know, and again, like, what's the value? You know, if I'm, you know, we've had men, I think our most senior elder was like 84.

Wow.

On a retreat with us, like with a terminal cancer diagnosis. So talk about a guy who had all the reasons why to not continue. And I think what was beautiful was what got him there was the change he saw in his son that had come on a previous retreat. He's like, whatever you got there, I want this, at 85 with a terminal diagnosis.

Wow.

So, there's, again, the value. Why would you? Why would you come? Why would you even be in this exploration? And I think that, you know, we have, you know, the invitation is to look through that lens of opportunity. Like, if everything is working the way you want it to work in your life, like, don't come. You don't need it. But if you're, if you're missing something or you're wanting or yearning for something in your life, whether it's in your relationship, your health, your well-being, Business career, whatever it is, there's a gap there. Like, come, come and see, come and explore. You know, what I've found, and we've had plenty of men in their, you know, 50s, 60s, 70s, a couple in their 80s come with us. And there's a bit of a theme I've noticed that these men have their entire lives been of service to others. So they've held it together for their families, their employees, their children. And they're like, Now it's my turn. Now it's my time. You know, I'm like, man, what a gift they gave themselves, you know, in like this back half of life to like, hey, this is for me now, you know? And, um, you know, so take— taking, you know, taking a look there and like in, in, um, specifically as it relates to like rights, you know, or like, I'm, you know, I'm this man now, whatever, like what Um, can also be like, I'm an elder.

Hmm.

You know, I'm, I'm stepping into role of, from, you know, boy, man to elder now, right? And there's initiation there that happens, right? And we had on this last retreat, we had like 3 elders with us and like, we, it was so beautiful. Like Alex, my retreat leader partner in this, we were just like, man, we've got We've got elders here and we've got men that have just such wisdom and so much life experience to share with all of us. And they're also here still with an open heart, curious mind, you know, and like they're learning. And it was just like such a cool, cool experience. And one of the elders was my mentor and he's like, Bob, I'm passing the baton to you.

Wow.

Um, you know, as he's stepping out of his you know, like warrior, right? He's stepping out of his like, I'm building, I'm creating, I'm working. He's stepping back into, hey, I'm going to sit back at the fire and just share my stories and teach the kids, you know, the stories and the songs and the, you know. So, you know, I feel like for the older guys, like one is like, you know, why? Why would you come? What's in it for you? And 2, like, you know, it's maybe it's just time to step into your eldership.

Yeah.

You know, just such a valuable experience. I think in our Western society, we've, we've gotten away from that value in eldership and it's, it's, it's saved my life more than once.

Yeah.

That wisdom and that, like, that experience. Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for that.

Yeah.

And I, you know, I love the way you just explained that, 'cause I think it also kind of like answered my question. It's like, yeah, there is just like trust in knowing that other men have done this too, right? And gotten value out of it. And yeah, that's really, um, that just really touched me, man.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for sharing that. And, you know, it's, um, something that I'm also just like really present to is like, how it's not just like a one-and-done experience. Like Chris in particular has been to multiple Alchemy of Men retreats, right? Like it's—

yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm, I think I've been there at 3, Bob. I think the last 3 I've been to and I'm, I'm signed up for the one that's coming up. I feel called to, to kind of bring back in something we were talking about earlier in our conversation, which is that gradient. It was in the construct of the coaching, right? The ACC, PCC, MCC is like the, the knowing The doing and the being. And what, what the hit that just dropped in for me is that the men who are listening to this podcast or watching us on YouTube, they're amassing that knowledge. They're seeking, they're kind of soaking up, you know, whatever they can about this thing of masculine, this whatever's percolating inside of them about their manhood, their masculinity, and who they are.

Yeah.

And these retreats, I have— for me, I'll speak, I'll use I statements— for me have been such a cool place to go and do. Like, I could read all the books, I can listen to podcasts, I can do all the things, but when I go on retreat, I get to be in practice. I get to be in work with other men in a place that's, you know, frankly safe. Like, I could fuck it up, I'll never see any of these guys again. Like, it doesn't matter, you know? But I get to go and do. I get to go and be in motion. And then You know, the next level beyond that is what keeps me going back is, A, I get something out of it. I get to be in the doing and in the exploration and the curiosity. I come back with so much insight and so many tools and so much for myself. And then I get to step into that third level of the being it, right? And that's the work. Like Smith was saying, it's the integration piece after the rite of passage. It's not just the weekend, but it's the integration. So yeah, it, I would, to any man who's listening or any woman who's listening to this podcast who has a man in her life, please consider a cool opportunity to practice, a cool space to go and do some of the work to get some of these theories out of the mind and get them into the body and into the heart and into the spirit and put them in motion and put some fire and some life into them. And, and see what happens, see what comes out the other side. Yeah, it's magical work.

Yeah. And, you know, I think this kind of like plays into what you were kind of speaking about, Bob, like before we actually like started the podcast is like the obstacles for that, right? Like we have like sometimes this way of speaking, honestly, like finances, right? For some people, like there's always things right in the way. So do you care to like speak a little bit about that right now?

Yeah, totally. Like, you know, it's in this, this, you know, realm of like, this work doesn't make sense.

Right.

And a lot of men don't understand or see the value in it or like what they're actually, you know, saying no to.

Mm-hmm.

Because like, to your point, there's a lot of— it's a big lift to leave your life for 4 days, 4 nights, you know, likely jump on a plane, go out into the woods with a bunch of strangers and, you know, have some uncomfortable conversations or, you know, literally put down all the distractions and then turn that gaze on yourself.

Yes.

Like that, that alone, like not, you know, not having to be an employee or a business owner, a leader, a husband, a father, a son, You just get to come and be you. Like, for the men listening here, when was the last time that you got to put it all down, you know, including your phone?

Yeah.

And just be, and then be with other men, right? And, um, you know, like, uh, you know, again, we're trained to be self-sufficient, which is not a bad thing, you know, it's, um, we need that. And we're trained to figure it out alone. We're trained to just like kind of keep grinding and going and going and going. And You know, in that context, it's hard to drop all that to then come, you know. And the thing is, like, if there's a whisper of any, like, I wonder what that is, or there's something there, or I feel like I might get something, just say yes.

Yes.

Because life will never provide the circumstances for it to make sense for you to come. Yeah, because there's always going to be work, there's always going to be an overwhelmed spouse or kids or house, or gotta cut the grass. Like, it never— it will never make sense. And Someday means never. Like, we will constantly kick the can down the road and then never afford ourselves this experience.

Wow.

Yeah, you know, so like, um, you know, there's typically a few— I mean, there's men's retreats all over the place, you know, like there's always one happening somewhere, you know, whether it's with Alchemy of Men or not. Um, there's all kinds of price points, there's all kinds of payment plans. Right? Like there's, if you wanted to get there, you would, you would get there. You would find the way to get there. Or you would ask, you know, I don't know if you, the opportunities to ask for help to get there. You know, we offer a scholarship and stuff like that, you know, when we, when we're able to do that. But consider like the number one, I would say the number one barrier is just not choosing it.

Yes.

And then you can explore like why, you know, why, like I don't value, sounds stupid, or I'm too, you know, I'm too busy. I'm too broke. I'm too overwhelmed. I'm too, too, too, too, which are the exact reasons why this event would change your life.

Yes.

You know, like to Chris's point, like the, the doing and the, like the awareness and all, like all of the, the juice you get on the event, but like you get to go home and then put it into practice. You know, you get to bring that home. And, you know, my wife, you know, it's a lot for me to leave as much as I do to go do these things, but my wife literally pushes me out the door. I'm so proud of you. Go. Thank you for doing this. Because she knows who she gets back.

Mm.

She gets a more grounded husband, a more present husband, a better father, you know, a man connected to his fire, his commitments. You know, he's in action, he's safe, you know, like a better version of me always comes back, you know. And then, you know, a few months goes by and, you know, yeah, I gotta get a couple cracks in the foundation. I'm like, gotta go again, you know. That's the thing too, it's like going on retreat, whether I'm leading or participating, is like a part of my well-being practice to help me stay grounded and connected to—

Yeah.

You know, all my yeses in life.

Yeah.

And, um, so all that being said, like, um, if you're just an immediate no, get curious about that.

Yes.

If you're an immediate no, you're probably not even listening. You're probably not listening to this podcast. But like, just consider, man, like, you know, what are you saying no to?

You know?

And, uh, I know like Smit and Chris can attest to this. The food alone.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

It's worth it. It's worth it. If you can come and eat, eat like the way we eat for 3, you know, 3 days, it's worth it.

Yeah, man.

But so much, so much more happens there, man.

Yeah, for sure.

So much more.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you know, so beautiful.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I was gonna say really, really beautiful to share, Bob. I know we gotta wrap in a second, but when and where is that next Alchemy Men retreat? And any final words?

Yeah. So we will be right outside of Austin, Texas on a beautiful old, like 800-year-old cattle ranch, October 22nd through 25th. Really cool, funky Austin-type kind of space, like what you would expect being out there.

Yeah.

And we've got plenty of space and full transparency, we're playing to make this a go. You know, so much of being able to hold these things is getting the correct number of men. And these aren't events where we make, you know, really money on. We're almost like a break-even business here. And, you know, but the transformation that happens and the energy that we get to swim in is really, you know, has me keep coming back and being committed to doing these things, you know, because it's, you know, it's the greatest show on earth in my experience.

Yeah.

So, yeah, we're really planning to get a few more guys in to make this a go. And Our 2027 dates will be really soon. So we have a website called alchemyofmenretreat.com. You can follow that. I'm sure it'll be in the show notes or something as well. So final words, just thanks. Thanks, guys. Thanks for holding this space and creating a space like this to just be in a nonsensical conversation.

Yeah.

We're not talking about the weather or bitching about our partners or our work. You know, we're talking about, um, life, we're talking about experiences, we're talking about growing, uh, getting better, uh, healing, um, body, mind, spirit, all of it. So, um, keep going, guys. Thank you so much, uh, for who you are in the world for this. And, um, thanks for bringing me into your magic here.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, thanks, bub. Love you.

Love you too.

Yeah, love you too, man.

Yeah.

Well, it feels great. And, uh, Wow. I, uh, know there's so much more to talk to, so hopefully, uh, yeah, we'll have you back.

Yeah.

All right, everybody. I guess this is time. Thank you so much for joining on for another episode of Wankings Unite. And hopefully that you listening in gave you something today, something that you can carry with you as the day progresses, the week progresses, your life progresses. And hopefully you also notice what I'm noticing today is like, Really just being with all of it. Like, this was messy, right? Nervousness, happiness, joy. We got a person giving in alcohol today on this episode, and all of it was welcome. So we hope that you welcome the phases of life, the rhythms of your own life, and choose to swim in it because on the other side, there's something waiting for you regardless of whatever you may be feeling today. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We love you. And Stay ready, have fun, and don't forget to play.