An Introduction to the Divine Masculine | S01 E02

This is When Kings Unite, the podcast where we journey with our mantra, masculinity as medicine. Join Freddie, yours truly, Smith, Wes, and Chris as we give voice and reverence to the divine masculine within us all. Self-initiated, purposeful yet warm, powerful yet playful, strong yet loving, Emotionally intelligent, and deeply present. Together, we join forces, brothers in arms, creating a space for deep love, vulnerability, and the embodiment of dignity. Are you ready? Let's go. Alright, let's dive in. I'm excited about this one. So in this episode of When Kings Unite, we are going to— we're going to examine this term that we've been throwing around called divine masculinity or the divine masculine. So just to kind of lay a little bit of groundwork here, um, a couple of years ago, actually a few years ago now, I was, um, I was engaging with this meditation app called Insight Timer, and I encountered this guided meditation by this guy named Greg Barwick. And he's the one that actually introduced me to this term, divine masculinity or divine masculine. And he started like, well, within the meditation, He sort of like delineated all these different attributes of what divine masculinity is, and so I had to listen to it a few times to to actually like get all of them and write down all of the different attributes. And you know, I I love language, so I actually went through and so you know sort of. Shifted some of the languaging so that it, like, would resonate more with me and what I felt divine masculinity is. So I'm going to share and introduce to you now what those attributes are, and then we can kind of do a deep dive and break down, you know, how we feel about and what we think and how we define these attributes. So here's the breakdown of Divine masculinity. Self-initiated. Purposeful yet warm. Powerful yet playful. Strong yet loving. Ever balancing, evolving, and integrating. Deeply present. Emotionally intelligent. Embracing harmony with the divine feminine. Operating from a system of love over fear. Exploring the full spectrum of maleness and manhood and the embodiment of dignity or our sense of worthiness. So I would love to start with the self-initiated because I've always held this strong belief that I, that I get to define masculinity for myself. And I truly believe like that's what makes it divine. Because I am the source of it. It's coming from me. It's coming from the source. So I would love to hear what you guys think about the self-initiated aspect of divine masculinity.

Yeah, I'll be really candid here. And thank you so much for bringing this entire conversation in, Freddie. It's— this is a powerful one. And I'll preface this by saying, My relationship with the divine, with divinity, is a work in progress. My spiritual expression for much of my life has been that which I grew up with, and it was simply a thing that I did, and that I don't know that I challenged it or inquired too much around it. So I've done a lot of thinking around divinity and my relationship with the divine in general in the last several years, and especially as it relates to masculinity. The concept around initiation comes up a lot in many of the writings of the prominent voices in men's work. I think there's this fear, this notion that we've lost a sense of initiation, of tribal-style initiation as a society. And I think in a lot of the narrative or the explanation around that, or the meaning that's given to it, is that it's a bad thing, right? That we've lost this rite of passage, this initiation ceremony that in tribal times that men would go through. When you get to a certain age, sometime in your teens, there would be this thing that would happen to initiate you into manhood. And I think there's a lot of power and truth in that. And I also am present to the tension between what you're bringing in from your perspective as initiation being self— generated, and it comes from within. And so I'll be really candid, I— this is one that I have a hard time holding both of them, because I think there's truth, there's validity to both in the power of group or tribal initiation, and also the power of, of self-initiation, especially as it relates to the divine aspects of both. You think about ancient cultures, indigenous tribes, they were deeply connected to spirit in their own form of spiritual expression and the divine. And that was included, that was a big part of these rites of passage that the young men had, right? So, um, there's a part of me that craves the structure and the kind of the outside-in-ness of those sorts of ceremonial practices that hundreds and thousands of years ago indigenous peoples had. And there's another part of me that really feels drawn to this idea of self-generated divinity and, and self-initiation, which is a really long way of saying I don't know.

Yeah, I think all of these are made-up terms. And with that being said, my— I have a— my own expression of these made-up terms. Um, for me, this idea of self-initiation is really interesting. I think there's multiple layers to this conversation. So around being initiated as a man, I think there's actually 2 categories of this, or at least that's how it's lived for me in my life. There's the initiating and then there's the initiated. And I have never been through, like, to Chris's point, like a tribal type initiation. What it's been for me is like, oh, this work kind of seems interesting. I see that there's benefit of it. I see how it changed other people's lives. Let me lean into it. And when I leaned into it, That was my initiate-ting. I was curious, I was playing with it, but I wasn't really embodying it. That's different. Like, I wasn't letting it live throughout my entire life. And it's not about being perfect. It's about, am I going to go back to my commitment? When all else fails, am I going to go back to my commitment? And like, like, the thing that's actually most present for me is like, I started doing this work, and then what had happened was my partner cheated on me and I wasn't dealing with my shit, and then I cheated on her. After that point, I then started to look at, well, I thought I was doing my, my work. I— this is what everybody says to do. Like, I thought I was good. And what I ended up realizing, that living the words and the practices that I, that I do Is totally different than just like doing it one-off here and there. And so like when it comes to this idea of self-initiated, it's like, can you live with that? Can you live with that commitment to like actually be the man that you say you're going to be even when you fuck up? Can you actually come back to it powerfully?

Super powerful. And I think what y'all are touching on is Especially, you know, in today's Western society, there, there is no like, all right, do this thing and now you're a man. And it really does have to come from the self. I think a lot about like what separates men from boys, what separates adults from children. And to me, it's, it's a sense of ownership of Not waiting for other people to do the work for me, but stepping up and doing the work for myself. Owning all of my shit, all of the ways I've shown up and fucked things up for myself, as opposed to blaming others or just expecting things to get better without any commitment on my part.

Yeah. And like what you just said, Wes, I'm like, yeah, that's like, that's it. Like that resonates for me. And then what also comes up for me, I'm like, oh, that's so fucking hard. You know, like just being relatable, like being a human, like sometimes that does occur as hard, you know, for me in my life.

Yeah.

I thank you both so much for bringing that in because what I'm hearing is 2 things. One is initiative, like taking the initiative, leaning in. And the other one is responsibility. Owning your shit and not deflecting, but actually living and embodying and having it reside deep within. It seems like the combination of those two is what I'm hearing you say is self-initiation for you. Do I get that right?

Yep. I think you nailed it.

Yeah. And I also think that there's an element of agency with this self-initiation or self-initiated conversation as well. Like, there's a part of me that, you know, definitely intellectually understands, like, the, you know, the tribal ceremonial aspect of, you know, rites of passage and all that kind of stuff. And I'm a big advocate for agency, for autonomy, that I have the power You know, I am the authority of my own life, and I have everything that I need within me, and that I get to be the source of everything that I need. I get to be resourceful in that way. So, so that's why the the self-initiated aspect of the divine masculine resonates so much with me because it's like. You know, I get to choose. I have say-so. Like, there was— one of my favorite books is Neale Donald Walsch's Conversations with God. And there was this point where the voice of God says to him, life, is not a discovery, it's a creation. And so when I think of life being a creation, it's like, oh, I get to create whatever I want. I don't have to do it. I don't have to do life the way everyone else is doing life. I get to do it in a way that feels aligned with me and my core values and what matters the most to me. So when I think of self-initiated, In regards to, or in the context of the divine masculine, that's what comes up for me. It's like I get to define the type of man that I, that I desire to be and create myself to be in this world.

Yeah, totally, man. And I think that's like so important. Like, in my stance and where I look at things, I actually, like, I don't believe that rites of passages are wrong. That I like, I'm actually intrigued in one, uh, doing one myself. And at the same time, like that doesn't need to necessarily mean that I'm not initiated or I'm not actually like living out the man that I that I want to be. And I think that's like a really important thing is like the agency that you just talked about. Like it's my choice to define what masculinity means for me. So for some people, if it's like yeah, go off in the wilderness and fast and like kick it with your boys and like do self-reflection. Amazing. Do that if that's truly what's going to serve you. And if also what's going to serve you is like, hey, you're going to spend an hour just reflecting on like, what are the qualities that you want to have in your own life as you practice and embody? Great. Do that too. Right? Like all of it can be true.

I can't help but also, uh, see How much of these kind of tribal initiation practices had to do with community, right? It was the transition of this boy to man in the context of the tribal community, which, let's face it, in our modern Western world, as Wes mentioned, community looks very different today than it did 20, 50, 100, 200, 300 years ago, or thousands of years ago. And so what comes to me through this conversation is, in addition to the agency, the choice that we have, in who we are, how we show up, and that self-initiation. We also get to choose community, right? This young boy being initiated through this rite of passage into manhood in an Amazonian tribe 150 years ago didn't get to choose his community. There was no agency there. But in the modern world, the way that we are all hyperconnected with the 4 of us living hundreds of thousands of miles away from each other, and yet we are connected in our little tribe. Right? We have the ability to choose, which is a pretty powerful thing. I appreciate you, Freddie, for bringing in agency as a part of this conversation.

My pleasure.

All right.

Well, let's pivot into the next attribute. And I think I want to combine 2 of them because I think they're interconnected and it's powerful yet warm. I'm sorry, purposeful yet warm. Powerful yet playful. Purposeful yet warm. Powerful yet playful. What comes up for you with those?

Purposeful yet warm has really hit for me. I came to this realization recently that, like, you know, there's that kind of stereotypical parent-child relationship where the parent's out kind of hustling, purposeful, doing their thing to try to provide for their kids when all the kids really want is for the parent to be present with them and to just be with them. And I think that's something— recently I strayed a little too into the purposeful. Like, I was kind of having that relationship with myself and my own inner child where I was trying to generate all this shit outside of myself for, you know, good reason, to provide for myself and my loved ones and all that, but I was missing that sense of warmth. I wasn't actually like there at home in myself. And recently, having through, I guess, yeah, like really connecting with my loved ones, a little bit of microdosing, some coaching, some spiritual work therapy, it's like I finally feel at home in myself again. And Holding space for that purpose and that warmth.

Yeah, I'll go jump in next. Like, when I hear about that, the first thing that actually comes to mind is like my why. Like, the bigger thing around this is that I want to show up as my full authentic self, which I relate to as like me showing up powerfully. And I want that for other people as well too. But I don't want it to be an uncontrolled fire. It's not like a wildfire. I want it to be like a campfire where people actually get to like look at it, be like, wow, that's so beautiful. Get the warmth from it and realize like, yeah, if you stick your hand in the fire, you're going to get burned. But the fire is not untamed. The fire is controlled. It's purposeful. It's intentional. And it's that experience that I actually want to have everywhere in my life. Like when people see me, I want them to look at me and be like, wow, that guy like really is living through his purpose. But I know I can still be best friends with him. And I want that relationship with me. That's the thing that I actively practice all the time is how can I love myself more, but also not make myself be wrong for anything that I'm doing?

Yeah.

Um, that resonates with me around the why, uh, when it comes to purposeful, uh, and, and powerful. 'Cause, and that's why I sort of lump them together because there's, there's power in the purpose, right? Um, and, and I, I, I love the, the, the, the duality, I guess, um, of the purposeful.

Mm-hmm.

Yet warm, powerful, yet playful. Because I think a lot of times when we, when we do things that are really meaningful to us and we are sort of locked in to our why and our vision, sometimes we— and I'll speak from the I— sometimes I can take myself a little bit too seriously in that regard. And sometimes I can be a little too rigid. Uh, with, with, with whatever my goal is or my intention is or my objective or my vision or my why. And so to, to, to couple these together, it's like, yeah, I can, I can be like, it's a both/and is what it sounds like. I can be purposeful and warm. I can be powerful and playful. Um, it's not an, it's not an either/or sort of thing.

Yeah, I was also really present to that duality, almost the opposition or the tension between some of these pairings of words or ideas. And I love the idea of having it be an and, and I'd love to take it one step even further with you, Doc. And that's what about it? What if it was in service of, right? So what if there was purpose in service of warmth or being warm in service of being in your why? Like, how could they support and really activate and amplify the other instead of being a hindrance or holding it down? This idea of power and play, right? Well, if you're powerful, uh, you know, that then, you know, play is— when you play, that play— being playful, being childlike can be seen as weakness. You're not powerful when you're playing. But I think you can be. I think you can really hold a powerful space in a playful way. And in fact, that's something that brings in a lot of warmth and, and it endears you to people around you. You can also play in support of your power. Nothing has to be that serious. Even something as serious as how we show up powerfully in the world, make a game out of it. So I think there's a way to kind of have all of these attributes be in service of the other instead of, you know, kind of if not just being a yes and, but even powerfully supporting each of the other attributes, if that makes sense.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah. It makes me think of like the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu and their stuff around joy, and like, they're so wise and powerful and also so willing to tap into that childlike joy and wonder. I also think of like a, like a lion playing, or like, I've had cats before, and like, it's like so cute to watch a cat like chase a laser pointer or whatever. And then I think about, I'm like, actually, if they were as big as lions, this would be fucking terrifying. They're basically just tiny little fucking murder machines. And like, you have to feel safe in order to play. Like, you have to feel embodied and in your power to be able to play. And yeah, really appreciating the kind of coexistence of those things.

Yeah. Do you know what's super neat, Wes? Like, this idea of safety with it. Uh, one of the questions that I actually have for you, like, where do you think that safety really comes from?

Um, yeah, the word coming up for me is embodiment, like being in a truly, like, grounded sense of power. Like, yeah, the one word that often comes up for me is being unfuckwithable, like Just knowing, like, not from a place of performance, but just fully knowing yourself and just being grounded into your body, into your power, and like knowing who you are and what you're capable of, like that naturally just provides like an anchor for me. And I, I'm sure for the people around me.

Yeah. You know, I'm— and the reason that I was asking, 'cause I, I love that word safety. And I think that Sometimes what happens with this word safety is people only look outside of themselves. They don't look at what's also in, in themselves that they can create their own safety from. And I love that your definition actually like encompasses that. It actually allows grounds for, no, there's agency, to Freddie's point, of us actually being able to create it in service of everything else that we want to have as well too. That's really powerful, man.

Um, yeah, I love where you know, how this conversation is shaping. And I think it's a great way to sort of integrate even the next attribute, which is strong yet loving, right? What are your thoughts on that particular duality? And to borrow from Chris, like thinking about it in terms of, you know, strong in service of being loving, or loving in service of being strong. Like, they're all, they're all interconnected.

Yeah, for me, this kind of goes back to a lot of the mythology around masculinity, and that strength and loving are at odds. Strength and love are enemies, that they don't play well together. I can think of nothing more powerful in this world, stronger in this world, than love, right? The force of love Uh, that I think is one of the things that really defines human beings in our divinity is, uh, such a source of strength. And so I can't help but think that if we choose— let me rephrase that— when we choose to show up as fully embodied love for ourselves, For the people closest to us, for humanity in general, for all the creatures walking this planet, whether they're humans or animals or whatever they might be. But when we fully embody that love, that's when we're at our strongest. And I think that anything else, any other expression of strength that is separate from love is not at its optimal. There is something inherently flawed and weak about it because it doesn't have— if it doesn't have Love at its source, and that I think is what connects it really powerfully to to divinity and what makes how that shows up in the divine masculine so much because that's where a lot of the narrative is around oh men must be strong and a lot of times that means not expressing love maybe even if you feel it maybe if your strength is connected with your love deep inside but you don't let it out and you don't express it or show it. That's the stereotype, right? Is that men have the hardest time saying the words I love you to their partner or to really anyone else, even though they may feel it so deeply because they think that it's at odds with being strong and men must be strong. I think there's nothing stronger than looking at someone and just telling them how you feel about telling them I love you. I think those two are strength and love are. Like peanut butter and jelly. They are meant to go together. They support each other so powerfully.

Yeah, you know, I, I love the I love you statement. I think that is one of my favorite practices to like shake up how people look at masculinity, is like, guys, look at a dude and be like, I fucking love you. I don't say anything like, I love you, bro, I love you, blah blah blah. You don't need to say that. You can if you want to. But really, the practice, like, that I found to be most powerful to shake up how I look at intimacy with men, not just in a sexual way, right? It's, hey, can I look at Chris and be like, hey, I love you? Look at Freddie, I love you. Look at Wes, I love you. And just have it—

Love you too, man.

Love you, bro.

Hey, thanks, guys. Uh, but have it just be exactly what that is, right? That, that's something really powerful. And I think that's the strong element in this is like, can you just Say the thing without having to overexplain yourself? Can you practice the thing without having to overexplain yourself? Like, love is as strong as it needs to be by itself, and letting it actually shine by itself is the strength for me when it comes to love.

Yeah. Beautiful. Um, there, there was another, uh, just, just to kind of play with this sort of like definition of strength. Um, just to, just to, you know, throw a little pepper in here, a little spice in here. Um, this idea, and this kind of goes back to one of our previous conversations around the myths around masculinity, is how when we see, you know, traditional masculinity portrayed in media, Strong is often associated with or collapsed with violence or something aggressive. And so I think I'm asserting that that's why the pairing was made with strong yet loving, because oftentimes the interpretation of strength is that it's aggressive. Or that it's some— in some way violent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As a kid, I was like, I was super obsessed with MLK because— and I don't know, like, if I even understood it fully at the time, but looking back, it's like being able to just show up from a place of love when, like, I can imagine there's so much anger and hurt there, like, The fucking strength it takes to do that. Like, man, it's fucking unbelievable to me.

Yeah, and it's like what I love about that example, it is so rooted in love, and look at the result, right? There is large amounts of impact everywhere around the world because of that person's stand. Um, and I see that for me in my life too. Um, and it's, you know, it's really interesting, Freddie, that you, uh, You mentioned the violence piece, 'cause I think that like, yeah, that I believe that's most people's connotation around it, that it has to be associated with it. And I actually have a really interesting viewpoint. So outside of the beautiful personal development ontological work that I do, I'm also a Krav Maga instructor. And we talk about a lot how our power doesn't just come from throwing a punch. It actually comes from who we're being out in the world. Can we actually assert ourselves in a way that actually protects ourselves and our loved ones, even without having to throw a punch? And I also think this raises up the second really powerful thing is like, would you kill for love? Like, my home was actually just broken into. Funny-ass story. I was on the call with— a call with Wes late at night, and I was walking up my stairs and I just smelled this like foul smell. And I looked down and there was a backpack that I've never seen before in my home. And I heard rustling up my stairs and there was someone in my fucking home, right? Like, and terrible situation. Like, I was scared out of my freaking mind. And I love that Wes is laughing at me right now. Makes it even better. But, you know, like a lot of the thoughts went through my head of like, all right, what's— what if this person has a gun? What if this is this? And one of the thoughts was, Okay, my girl's next to me. My stump is up there. What if they have a weapon? What will I do now in this situation? And yes, like, I have protocols and things that I practice to keep myself safe, but if I had to, I would engage physically, 100%. And I would do that out of love for myself and my partner. And that's not a bad thing either. It's— but it's about like the conscious choice while making it. And I think that is also a part of this masculine, uh, divinity conversation, right? About these 2 different polarizing things. Like, we can actually have both. We can be violent and loving, and we can be nonviolent and loving, but it's our choice.

Be a warrior for love.

It's one of my favorites, man. Thanks for saying that.

Yeah, for the record, that was fucking insane to be on a call with Smith. And he was just like, oh shit, Wes, let me call you back. Let me call you back. I was like, okay. I— and then he texted me. He was like, yo, Someone just broke into my house. I was like, oh, fuck. Um, I can laugh about it now knowing that everything's okay. But yeah, like, I was also like in the moment, I was like, oh, Smith's gonna be fine. He's fully trained for this. Everything's gonna be good.

Yeah, I think the police came on scene and their first like sentence to me was like, they came to your house? And I was like, yeah, yeah, not a great situation.

But, uh, Because you probably, you've probably trained these police officers, right? In some of their techniques.

All of them. And so they came up, they're like, oh, fuck. But which, I mean, like divine, talk about divineness, right?

Yeah. I love, Smith, that you're, you're bringing in actually the next attribute, which is ever-balancing, evolving, and integrating. Like, That it doesn't have to be either/or. And we've been talking about this, you know, it's, it's a both/and. It gets to be, you know, inclusive of, of all of it, and, and we get to choose, right? So when you think about ever-balancing, evolving, integrating in regards to the Divine Masculine, how does that, how does that kind of sort of factor into all that we've discussed so far?

Yeah.

This might be a little bit bold, but I'm playing in the bold spaces. I don't think I really trust anybody that is not taking a look at themselves and changing. Like, I think I say probably 10+ times throughout the week of just like, oh, I messed up. I fucked up. Like, I shouldn't have done that. Like, there's like power in that ownership. But I think the beauty of the divine masculine in that way is that it doesn't have to be that it's just wrong, or that's the way that it has to keep going in the future. The masculine is totally okay with playing in the full spectrum. It doesn't just need to stay at one spot. And I know a bunch of people, and sometimes I fall into this trap too, of like, I'm like, I'm good there. Like, I'm not going to change up because I think I got the perfect answer. And then something comes along in my life that like reminds me of like, oh no, like everything is fluid and I have choice in all of it.

I love that, uh, Smit. And one of the things that comes for me is, um, and I mean, Wes and Smit, you'll know from the AC training, one of the, uh, the pillars of the things that comes up in relationship is this idea that you can do one of 3 things. You can grow it, you can kill it, Or you can let it die, right? Those are the only 3 options. And so as it relates to this idea of growth and development and expansion and integration, that's my relationship with myself. That's my relationship with my masculinity. And that's a choice. What am I choosing here? Am I going to grow it? Which I think is the powerful thing to do. That's how we expand. That's how we get more capacity and facility with the entire spectrum that we've been talking about of masculinity. Do we kill it? I don't know too many people that are out there actively killing their masculine self, but I think most people just let it die. They just don't pay attention to it. They don't water it. They don't feed it. They don't nurture it. And if you let something be, it's the law of entropy. It's simply going to erode. It's slowly going to die or quickly going to die. But if you don't take action to grow it, that is going to be the end result. So for me personally, I see no way forward other than to do this expansive work, this growth, this integration. And, um, I'm, I can see how that does connect very powerfully with my sense of my masculinity.

Yeah. Um, there's a, there's another component or element of this that I think is interconnected and that's, and that's learning, right? How, you know, learning is, is the essence of the human experience, like our, our ability to, to learn and to apply, you know, what we learned, to apply the knowledge. Like we hear all the time, knowledge is power. It's like, no, knowledge is potential. It's potential power. Not, you know, power is applied knowledge. It's applied learning. It's integrated learning. So I think that learning piece is really important as well. That, and we never, Stop learning, you know, or at least we never should stop learning. But, but you know, to me, like we've been talking a lot about intimacy. You know, I believe the most intimate thing we will ever do in life is learn. You know, to be able to accept and admit to ourselves, you know what? I don't know. Instead of pretending like we do know when we don't. Like, that's a very, you know, sometimes often a very traditional masculine thing to do is, you know, we want to appear strong, we want to perform strength. So we pretend to know something that we really don't know, and we shut ourselves down from learning.

Yeah.

I, you know what, I just remembered a really recent example this week where, um, there was somebody in my life that were like, oh yeah, yeah, I know all about that thing. But they really didn't know all about that thing. And I was like, that had an impact on me. I was like, oh, like, I wonder what has this person acting in this way. And it's likely something to do with like losing power, control, etc. And I also had a different experience this week where someone was like, actually another male, right? Another guy in my life that was just like, hey, I actually don't know. Can you show me how? And I was like, Hell yeah, dude. Like, I had so much more respect and I didn't look down on that person. I was like, I actually look up to you for being like, you actually don't know something and you want to learn from me?

Cool.

Let's go. Let's learn together. And then through that interaction, I actually got to learn more about that person, more about what they're up to in their life. And it created such more connection. And I think there's a lot of beauty in being like, hey, I actually don't know anything. Teach me. Show me the way.

Yeah, one thing coming up for me in like owning our shit, like the ways in which we might not be all-knowing or all-powerful, is also integrating our darkness. I think there's— yeah, when you said, Smith, I don't fully trust people who like don't really take a hard look at themselves, Uh, I, I was thinking like, I don't fully trust people who aren't in tune with their darkness at all. Like, you know, as much as we'd like to pretend there's none of it there, like, we all have it, right? Like, there is a demon inside me who occasionally wants to like yell at people on a basketball court, and like, that's, that's part of me too.

And oddly specific example.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely very specific. Definitely has happened on multiple occasions. But like, I feel like, yeah, there's a lot of power in just like owning that, like, you know, that's part of me and like knowing what parts of myself I want to feed and integrate. Yeah.

And what I'm hearing so powerfully from all of you is this, the, the, the importance of humility. Right? Because if you think you've already got it, like, oh, I'm there, like you were saying, Smith, some people like, oh, I don't need to learn anything, then there will be no growth. There will be no— because they're pretending that they already know everything, right? So it's this spirit of humility and just acknowledging, yes, the things that I do know, and also the things that I don't know, and the openness and the willingness, to your point, Freddie, to learn. Hey, how can I expand here? What's, what's the potential for me to, to get a little bit bigger in my knowledge and expertise and just learn something here. I think it's powerful.

Yeah.

I think it was Brené Brown that said once, if you think you have all the answers, don't call what you do faith.

Yeah.

That one really hit for me.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's really good.

And I think this, like, this naturally segues us into one of the next attributes, which is deeply present. Because you know we hear in our space as coaches, as you know human development practitioners, we hear all the time, you know about being present, be present, be present. But what does that even mean? Right? Like what does that even like? Like one of my mentors shared this once. She said instead of it being you know oh I'm going to be present like this. like this sort of stoic, still space of nothingness and calling that present. It's like, no, what am I present to in this moment? And to sort of borrow from Wes, you know, with this embracing the light and the dark, what dark parts of myself am I present to?

Yeah.

You know? And we live in this world, in this society that sort of You know, celebrates, you know, only showing people the best parts of ourselves. I only want to allow people to see my light and not my dark.

You know, I would, I would add into that, um, specifically for men, Freddie, is, um, the, the kind of stereotypical or patriarchal mythology around masculinity is that we are doers. We're here to provide. We're here to do stuff and to get shit done. And the being part is kind of an afterthought in that construct. And so I think the Divine Masculine really kind of balances that out. We've talked a lot about already about how the Divine Masculine shows up in doing, in action, in strength, and in that sort of thing. What I'm getting here is so much about men showing up as themselves and being I was watching a comedy special with my wife just the other night, and the comedian was recounting his childhood and how his father, who was a neurologist, like a medical practitioner, very highly educated man, certainly loved his family very much, but he worked reasonably long hours to provide for his family. And he came home, and when he came home, he would eat a meal and then he would go sit in a chair in the corner and read a war novel. Every single night, and the kids knew not to go over and bother him because he was reading his book. Right? So it's like he was doing; he was in the doing space. He was providing for the family, the shelter, the food, like all the things that as a man in the patriarchal system, we're taught this is what a man is. But he wasn't actually being present. There was no connection. There was no relationship with the loved people in his life, and I have no doubt that. At the end of his life that that was something that, that, you know, he would— I don't want to be in a position toward the end of my life where I regret not being present with the people in my life more because I felt called to the doing. I felt compelled or pressed into the doing and less into the being. So for me, that's what this one is all about, is just building connection, but also just being willing to let go of the doing and to just be. present with the people around me.

Yeah, that's really— so I love all the different ways you just connected that, Chris. One of my favorite memories that I have of you was just our last time, uh, in Huntington Beach. We're like— I'll save you guys all the context, but I basically found Chris on the floor and I was like, I was looking for you. He was looking for me. And it was this beautiful thing. And when we actually got to connect, like, he was sharing some shadow parts of himself with me. And I was like, oh, fuck. Like, I really get to see this guy right now. And it was one of my favorite moments 'cause you essentially allowed me to see you in that way. And ever since that point, I was like, man, there's no way this guy is not gonna be an integral part of my life. And I think it just kind of speaks to the power of, like, being present. Like, I now will look at Chris in a totally different way because he allowed me the gift to see him in that capacity.

And we can provide a little bit of context just to demystify it. This was part of a plant medicine ceremony. We'll talk about that, I think, in a future episode. But thank you for saying that, and thank you for bringing that in. I remember distinctly that moment and the connection that we felt and that we had in that moment. And yeah, It's, it's a great example of, uh, the power of being fully present. To Wes's point, shadow included, like the good, the bad, the ugly, but just allowing ourselves to be seen and trusting that, that I've got me no matter what happens. And also trusting the people around me also have me. Thank you for that, man.

Sure, brother.

Yeah.

And I, I think it's important also to create a bit of a distinction here, uh, Chris, with what you shared around the, the being and the doing. 'Cause there's this, this, um, especially in like the transformational training spaces, there's this, uh, this concept called be, do, have, right? And, uh, a lot of people think of be, do, have as though it's linear. Right? It's a linear process that I need to be this so I can do this so I can have this. And no, they all operate concurrently. You know, it's the being that shapes the doing. If you're in— if you're focusing on the doing, you're not not being. You're still being something. You may not be being present, but you're being something else other than present. So it's about being aware, having the awareness of who am I being that is shaping the doing that I'm currently doing, right? So I think that's, that's a, that's a great distinction that I think is important to make for people.

Thanks for being like emotionally intelligent with that, which I assume is the next one, if I remember correctly.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I, um, I think I noticed that like around this idea of emotional intelligence, I think that's really, for me, the crux of the Divine Masculine is if I can't feel all the emotions, then how can I make any sort of educated action? And ties to the Bidu have as well too, but like, What if I did? What if I lost half of my feelings? Like I couldn't feel anger or sadness or happiness. What would that do for me in my life? And unfortunately, like sometimes I do it, other people do it where we suppress these emotions and then it limits our possibilities. So I think like in the spirit of the divine masculine, if we're not being emotionally intelligent, we're gonna close out all the other doors.

Yeah. Emotions. Are people like— we have a tendency to, um, as a society, to ascribe labels to our emotions, like they're good or bad, they're right or wrong, right? But all emotions serve a purpose. Like, I— for my clients, for example, I share with them, think of your emotions as Our biological life alerts. They're signals that are signaling to us something is occurring, pay attention. That something could be anything. But I can't automatically assume that just because I'm feeling something that it's negative or that it's bad, right? All emotions serve a purpose. And so, if I'm present to— it's like, okay, all my emotions are serving a purpose. I get to then, number one, be aware of the emotion and the different components of emotion, and be aware of all of those components of the emotion so that I can then choose how to respond to whatever that emotion is rather than being reactive in the autopilot.

Yeah, I'm really glad you brought in that notion of presence, because to me, being deeply present and emotionally intelligent, those are very linked for me, and just being attuned. I have this story of like, um, I lived at home for a year and a half somewhat recently with my parents, and when I brought up that I was planning on moving to SF, my mom like kind of threw this little temper tantrum of like, oh, so nothing I've done for you matters? You're gonna leave me anyway? And I was like, all right, okay. And like, I kind of felt the automatic pull of like going back into being a teenager and like fighting with her or whatever. But like, in that moment, I had the space to like see what she really wanted which was she just wanted to feel loved and valued and not abandoned. So I just asked her, like, Mom, like, what do you want to hear from me right now? Like, I love you. I'm not going to forget about you. I just see a lot for me in this opportunity. And I— it's just something that I feel like I have to do. And then I just gave her a hug. And the next day she started, like, repeating my talking points back to me of, like, oh, yeah, you know what? I think this would be great for you, blah, blah, blah. Because, like, she just felt heard and loved. And if I had gone into the old teenage mode, like, we would probably still be bickering. There would be, like, no progress made.

Dude, I just want to acknowledge your big open heart for creating that space for, for you and your mom. Yeah, that really touches me, man.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, thanks for bringing that in, Wes. What a powerful example of emotional intelligence. And I can't help but reflect on, especially as men, I think we've touched on this earlier. Freddie, you brought it in, right? As men, we don't feel less than women do. We have all the same emotions and we feel them just as powerfully. What happens is we're conditioned as men To, um, to not give them voice, to not express them. Just shove it way, way deep down inside and lock it away, and it'll be perfectly fine down there. As we all know, until it isn't, and then it, then it becomes a problem. That's when the shit hits the fan. So I think it's a, it's the process of, um, or it's a way of getting facility with our emotions to be able to actually be comfortable expressing them. When something we've touched on earlier, safety, right? We may have been conditioned that it's not safe to do so, but being willing to have the courage to do so anyways, and then to go one level further like you did, Wes, and not just process and interpret and express your own emotions, to be able to see other people's emotions, right? And to understand what's going on on their side and to be able to interact and respond intelligently. With, with their emotions and feelings and what's coming at you and not make it all about our stuff, right? We have that tendency to say, oh, this is— I must be wrong. There must be something happening over here with me. I'm bad. I'm all the judgments that you talked about, right, Freddie? So it's a really, really powerful example of not just having your emotional intelligence within yourself and having the facility with your emotional range, but also being with someone. Else's emotions and being comfortable being with someone else's emotions and working with it and working with them through it, even if they don't have the same level of facility that you do. That's powerful stuff, man. Thank you.

Yeah.

That reminds me of, uh, uh, a client that I had a few years ago. And in one of our sessions, he said, uh, like very early on in our engagement together, He made this statement that feelings don't get shit done. And I was like, okay, that's not incorrect, but it's incomplete. Because it's not that— like, if you're thinking in terms of simply productivity, then yeah, operating in feelings and operating with emotions doesn't get shit done. But who— to, to your earlier point, Chris, who says we got to be doing shit all the time? You know what I'm saying? Like, so, and our— just because feelings don't get shit done does not mean that our feelings and our emotions don't serve a purpose and that we can't use them for some purpose. So I think that's— I think that's important to, uh, To distinguish as well. Um, and yes, thank you, Wes, for, for that beautiful, uh, demonstration. And I think that kind of ties us into this embracing harmony with the divine feminine, right? Um, I, I think I shared, uh, I can't remember if it was, um, earlier in this conversation or in our last episode. around this idea of masculinity as, as a rejection of anything that's perceived as feminine, right? And so I believe that the divine masculine is, you know, like, like we've been calling it a spectrum, right? So I think it's, it's embracing the harmony of that spectrum, right? So what are y'all— I'm curious to hear y'all's thoughts on that.

I got a lot to say about it. Um, yeah, so in ter— like, the way that I look at this is like in terms of attraction, like not just like not just sexually, right? The first thought that did come to my mind is like with my partner who like regularly practices the divine feminine. Um, but there's also like parts of that in myself. Like, I have divine feminine parts of me. Like, not to be crude, but like, yeah, I love to fuck and I also love to be fucked, right? Like, like it's, it's like the duality of that. And outside of the bedroom too, like there's like beautiful synergy that gets created when we get to actually intersect them. I actually believe in chakra work and they, uh, in the Indian culture, the, the Ayurvedic teachings, they say that the chakras get created when masculine and feminine get to actually perfectly align with each other. And I love that concept because it just reminds me that like, it doesn't have to be outside of me. It can be, but I actually have it already inside of myself. So the way that I get to feel, move through my body, actually empower my masculine, like Chris's point, in service of— if I get to be in tune with my emotions, I get to be more powerful. If I get to provide to my lady, she gets to love me back a little bit more. If I get to like be held, I then get to hold her back. All of it connects for me.

Yeah, I really appreciate you bringing in like not just being with the divine feminine in others, but being with that in ourselves. Like, yeah, I feel like that has a lot to do with the, the kind of integration we were talking about of like, yeah, I am masculine and strong and disciplined and whatever the fuck comes with being masculine, and I'm also expressive and creative and attuned and soft in ways. And like, yeah, I need, I need all of that. Like, I need all of that harmony within myself so that I can be with that in others, to be able to hold a feminine partner or Even the femininity within my male friends or whatever that is.

Yeah, I think what you're just touching on here, Wes, is so important, which is, yes, we all have masculine and feminine within us. And that's the beauty of connection and relationship and partnership, is that we can support each other because we go through ebbs and flows in life. That's just how it is. Some days what we need is for the person or the people that we're with to be more in their masculine. And sometimes what we need is for ourselves to be in the masculine and to be with people who are more in the feminine. So being able to kind of manage through the ebbs and flows of life, I think, is really powerful and important.

Yeah.

And just to kind of add a little, a little bit to this is embracing harmony with the divine feminine, with the divine feminine as also strong. Because I think in a lot of cultures, like it's sometimes a cultural thing as well, where men and masculinity are strong and women and femininity or feminine energy is perceived as weak. So a lot of this you know, a lot of these ideas of the rejection of anything that's perceived as feminine in regards to masculinity is rooted in this idea that femininity is weak. All right.

I would— yeah, I love that, Freddie. I would also add there's many social constructs have a value differential. Being masculine is better.

Yeah.

And being feminine is less good. Right?

Right.

When in fact, both are equally powerful, equally needed, equally valuable, and it's, it's simply situationally and contextually dependent on what the, what, what the situation, the context calls for, is what, is what is most beneficial.

Absolutely. Man, an hour has passed already. Like, wow, it feels like we just got started.

Time flies when you're having fun, right?

Yeah.

Well, I know we're coming up, um, uh, towards the end of our conversation here, um, and there, there are a couple of additional, um, attributes on the list that I think we can sort of start, you know, sort of wrapping this conversation up. But, um, and, and some of it we've been talking about already, like exploring the full spectrum of maleness and manhood. Like that, I think that has been interlaced and interwoven with this entire conversation that we've been having. And then the embodiment of dignity, our sense of worthiness, our sense of enoughness that has been interwoven as well. So I think we can— let's think about, as we think about these particular attributes, what are some maybe actionable steps for those who are listening? that men could take in regards to exploring their full spectrum and embodying that dignity to connect with their divine masculine?

I think it starts with awareness. So I think it's having the curiosity and the willingness to look, to explore, to play, to be curious about yourself. And about all these different things that we've talked about and not shy away from being— from seeing imperfection where it exists. It's like, wow, there, there is a part of what, you know, everything that we've talked about. There's this thing that was talked about that, hmm, I really see opportunity for myself there if I could step into it more powerfully and then go do it. Right. So I think taking a little bit of an inventory Um, with— from a place of grace and not from a place of judgment, and from that place of curiosity and the willingness to step in and just try something different. Think about the last time you tried something different. Was that the day that you died? No. Like, it doesn't kill us to go and try these things. So get out there and explore and play and just try. See what happens. This expression, fuck around and find out. We'll do it. Get out there, try something new, and find out what happens, because that's where we can push the boundaries and kind of expand our abilities to be with ourselves on this divine masculine spectrum.

Yeah, I totally agree with that, man. And kind of playing off of what you just said, I think the, the thing that can get people into like a sabotaging thing with this is that they just do it alone. What I really recommend is find someone to practice with. It's actually much easier for people to do this shit alone, and that creates the smallest amount of impact from my experience. Find a coach, find a masculine and feminine embodiment teacher, find a best friend that is open to this work, and find a way to practice. And if you get stuck, like, reach out to one of us. Like, we will point you in the right direction for sure.

Yeah, I love that. invitation to do it in community, because I know my default instinct is like, all right, I'm gonna do this shit on my own and just feel lonely and heavy and all that.

Um, how masculine of you.

Yeah, right. Um, so yeah, my invitation would be to look at these different attributes of purposeful yet warm Powerful yet playful, strong yet loving. Like, where can you embody both of those in each of those dichotomies? Where can you create more balance and harmony so you can be with yourself and others more powerfully?

Thank you. Thank you for that, Wes. Yeah, I would add to Everything that you all have shared. And I know last time, uh, my invitation was to explore dignity and explore our worthiness and our sense of enoughness. For my invitation today is, you know, in, in tandem with that, also explore intimacy. And when I say intimacy, I mean our sense of Vulnerability, our sense of visibility. Um, you know, a lot of times we hear, um, intimacy referred to as into me see, right? And it's also into messy, right? So don't be afraid to get messy, you know, like, yes, be in community with, with other people and allow yourself to be seen.

Mm-hmm.

Light and the dark, you know, good and the bad and the ugly, all of it, because you are a whole person. That's what it means to live in integrity, right? Accepting that I am a whole person and I get to move as a whole person in every space that I enter because I am worthy, because I have agency. Right.

Thanks for the beautiful space, Freddie.

Love it.

Love you, kings.

Love you, kings. All right, well, that wraps up another powerful journey where masculinity as medicine is our North Star. We hope you've been inspired and rewired to cultivate the purposeful, playful, and loving energy of your own divine masculine. Join us next time as we continue exploring our experiences, expressing our hearts, and expanding our connection to support, uplift, and empower one another. To show the world what's possible when kings unite. When kings unite.