Building a Strong Core with Christopher "CT" Thompson | S02 E08

All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of When Kings Unite. Today on our podcast, you have me, Smit, alongside our beloved Dr. Freddy, the powerful shaman Chris Grinstedt, and a special guest today, our beloved brother CT, a true king. And the really powerful part about this podcast, this episode in particular, is CT dives into what it means to have a strong core. So if you're ready to get rooted into who you are, live with more authenticity, and have some fun while doing it, tune in, get ready, put on your fun cap, 'cause it's time to get started. Alrighty guys, we are back in action for another episode. It's really nice to see you guys today. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

What's up? What's up? Good to see you.

Yeah, man. Yeah, this is, uh, just to let the viewers know, we had a crazy energetic bomb that just dropped off from all 4 of us being on the call today. And, uh, I'm curious to see how this podcast goes, but, uh, welcome CT into this crazy wonderland of, uh, Of our work, if we can call it that.

Listen, I'm so excited to be here. I can't even stand it. Like, we're gonna have such a good time. Let's do it.

Let's do it. Oh yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, brother, I—

As I tell people when I go in my sessions, I tell 'em to take the one arm, put it across, and say, click. Put your seatbelt on. Let's go.

All right. All right.

Let's go. Let's go.

Yeah. I, dude, I am pumped for this episode in particular. Just let the viewers know too, you know, you're, part of the— our men's group, right? TMC, uh, the Man Cave. And, um, you know, it's been so beautiful to like share a space with you. Like, me personally, I can speak for myself. Um, and, you know, like, I know so many nuances, right, of your life, and I just love the shit out of you, dude. Like, your energy, your frequency, the way you carry yourself, the way that, um, you have dropped me to my knees like crying. Like, From all of the like nuances and experiences that we've had, like I, I hold our relationship so tenderly. Um, and I know that's pretty much the case for like anybody that you meet, right? Like Freddie's nodding his head for our, for our, uh, Spotify and Apple listeners. But like, man, it's, it's super pumped. I'm, I'm super pumped and yeah, super excited to have you. And, um, yeah, meeting Chris and everybody, I'm just like, wow, this is, this is gonna be special. So thanks for coming on, Juan. And yeah, I would love for you to like, Take up the floor a little bit, man, and like share a little bit about who you are, what you're up to. And yeah, we'll, we'll have some fun from there.

To be clear, this is an honor because I hold your humanity, Smit, Freddie, and Chris, in high regard because you have given me permission to be the unfiltered, No mask. CT, Chris, Short Dog, Christopher, whatever name I have been given, whatever mask I've worn, whatever title I have been in, you all have gifted me with the opportunity to just be. And that is a place that I don't get to be often. And so, whether it is on the call with TMC, whether it is in this moment with you now, I am just deeply present. I am deeply honored in our— all of our humanity. And I'm going to do the very best I can To not be any version that I believe I should be and just have a conversation with you. Like, when folks say, you know, tell me about who you are, that could take forever. It could be layered. The nature of the question almost is performative in the sense that I've got to be able to— I feel like I've got to say it in a way that allows people to want to connect with me, or I can find commonality or connection with somebody in the thing that I've said. And yet, that is not what— I'm feeling like the energy of this is. I am a Black man from Columbus, Ohio, born to Leslie and Marquette in 1972, which makes me older than you, Schmidt. And I— At least by a year.

By

a year or two. Yeah. I'm gonna keep talking so we don't get too derailed in the moment. But I've got a sister, Renee. I've got a sister, Paulina, and a brother, Eric. And I've been married to Melanie for almost 30 years. And we have 3 beautiful children, Christian, Caleb, and Kennedy, and then a stepson named Dietrich. And we have an amazing family unit that has gone through a whole lot of, in the spirit of what this podcast is, a whole lot of shit. I figured, you know, there's some stuff that I've done before where I wasn't allowed to use colorful language. And yet, I feel like colorful language will be a part of how I will represent myself today. And if someone doesn't like it, that's okay. I'm not looking for you to like me. I'm simply looking for me to be the version of me that I want to be in this space. So, thank you so much for that. So, let me slow down just a bit. Hey,

that was beautiful. Yeah.

I acknowledge that there are these moments where someone is interested in knowing more about me, and I wanna honor that. I started my own company back in November of 2024 after having spent all of my career in corporate, and that was no longer serving me. And because it didn't serve me, we started my own thing. And as we go through this conversation, we'll talk a little bit more about what that means. And it, And it all was a push for me to say, the kids are out of the house. If I'm going to live, I might as well live the version of me that most celebrates why I am here. I am a man of deep faith. I've been a pastor at a church before. I started my own church before some years ago. Like, so I'm deeply rooted in something theological and biblical. At the same time, I'm doing a daily deconstruction of everything that I know. And one of the things I teach in some of my classes is when you walk in, the idea is you don't know anything. So you can create space to know something that you didn't know. And that's how I'm working every day to live my, in my life. And so it's, it's just a, a beautiful place that I'm at. And the most important thing you should know about Christopher right now is that his oldest son and his wife, Mm-hmm. Krista, are expecting our first child. So I'm going to be a pop-pop here in Goodness Breaks Us in January. So nothing else matters. Like, it doesn't matter whatever goodness is going on, all the other stuff. I'm going to be a pop-pop. And I've asked them to make sure that they— we induce on January 11th, 'cause that's my birthday. So that we can have my baby with me on that day. So I like, I am, there's so much goodness. that is going on in my life and the layers of things that people would be interested in knowing about me. Maybe they'll come out through questions, maybe they'll come out through some responses, but that's how I figured how I'd like to start the conversation without anything scripted, just me having a quick moment to reflect, to share, and just an honor to be in the space with you all. So, thank you.

Mm.

Yeah, man. Thanks so much for sharing what you did. And yeah, man, I mean, I think you, in our interactions, you say this quite a bit and remind, I think, everybody about this too, really, really well is like this concept of like a layered cake. Like Freddie and I were literally just talking about that with our, like, our businesses, like what we're creating, right? Like it's kind of ridiculous that people try to like just put us all in like a box when— We're human. Like, we have so many different shades and textures. Yeah, man, I thought, you know, what you said was really important for people to hear is like, they're just getting maybe 1, 2, 3 sides of you through that share. But man, like, you also have so much more, you know? And I'm excited to dive into that with you too. Yeah. But yeah, man, I think it's really Like, I think that's such a gift, you know, for, for people to like hear that. So thanks for like representing that too.

Absolutely. And the genius about cake is that there are the layers of it is one, if you have a layered cake, that's beautiful and it's delicious. But the, the point of a cake is that you have to also recognize that the ingredients that come with the cake are what make the cake up. And if you don't know that, if Freddie, if I'm in relationship with Freddie and Freddie doesn't eat eggs, then if I'm going to serve him a piece of me, I've gotta be ensured that the cake that I'm giving him or the piece of me I'm giving him, it doesn't have eggs in it. 'Cause that can make him allergic to me and that would, that would impact our relationship. And so to the extent that when we start thinking about what layers look like, you've gotta insert into the context, wait, what is the ingredients I'm bringing into the space that I'm in so that those who are there can get the very best version of what it is that I'm feeding them? When you start thinking about the fruit of my book, right, is how people are responding to your leadership. So when they taste of your leadership, are they impacted by it? How are they impacted by it? And so to me, that's like the ingredients we put into this thing. So our relationship up to this point, you all have put in some good things. And so my, my response has to be that I'm, I am giving and I'm producing in this moment the version of me that this space can taste. Yeah. So I'm, and, and y'all, goodness gracious, y'all have given me permission to be things that I don't normally out in public. And so this could get real interesting. So we'll see. Chris already gave me permission to say, you know, you don't have to. And yet, CT gonna be CT. So, you know.

I love it, man. I love it. The one thing I love about cakes is, especially layer cakes, you can't really see the layers. You can't count them. You don't know what flavor they are until you slice into the cake. Right. So if we slice into you for a little bit now, we'd love to examine some of those layers. So for our listeners, those who aren't watching us on our YouTube recording, I imagine that our lived experiences are very different just by the very nature of how we present to the world.

Sure.

And so I'm curious if you could just share, help me understand, and maybe help our listeners understand specifically as it relates to your masculinity, who you are as a man. How was it for you? Tell us about your journey as you were growing up as a young man of color in the '70s and the '80s, up through into today, approaching grandfatherhood, becoming an elder in the clan. I'd just love to hear a little bit about that journey and what you've learned along the way and what little nuggets of wisdom you'd like to impart to the generation behind you.

Now I'm having to think about what cake I'm going to give you and how many real layers there are. Because that question really does give lots of thoughts to my own mind in the sense that born and raised in Columbus, Ohio, had a working professional father in the home, and my home was a religious one. So we were in church if it was open. The very first experiences of Christopher learning something. Many people talk about learning their ABCs. I learned the books of the Bible. I learned scripture. I learned how to be a good church boy. I learned that in my educational endeavors that my sister was smarter than I. And so my pursuit was always to try to be better than my sister in class, and I never could be. So I had to be better— In church. than her in everything else. And so I played lots of sports. Football was my passion. Track was where I was rewarded 'cause I was fast. And I literally, Chris, did everything, whether it was acting in plays, whether it is in student government, whether it was learning how to play card games. I was a master of nothing, but I was good at everything. And so wherever I put my hands to do, there was something good that came out of it. And yet, There was nothing specific that I could pinpoint and say, this is who I am, or this is what defines or could define me. And so much of my life, if it was working, it was 'cause it was happening in church. And if it was relational, it was because I was in context with other people who knew religious things. And so I was judgmental by definition. by upbringing, by default. In that context, especially in the— at the times it was Apostolic Pentecostal, it was Baptist, it was a very strict religious way of thinking about how you showed up. And if you were wrong, it was sin, period. And the wages of sin is death, right? So there was this consequence to you doing something wrong. And so I lived a good bit of my life in this context that I was working hard not to do wrong. And because of that, it was a ton of people pleasing. So I was really good at making sure that the people I needed to please were pleased by what I did and how I did it. And it took me a long way. I was an All-Ohio football player. I went and played in college. My grades were fine. There was absolutely nothing wrong, if you will, with my life. Until I got to college. And college, I was a sinner. Like, if, if you wanna just like really deconstruct how my life as a man was reformed, transformed, however you wanna call it, like I found alcohol, I found women, I found cussing. I hadn't cussed like in, like ever. And it was the general rule, especially for me, is that if you did, you were gonna get in trouble. The very first time my father heard me cuss was my senior year in college after a football game, and we lost. That was the first time. And I was like, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen? So there was much of how I grew up, how it was formed, was very structured. It had rules. It was disciplined. One of my strengths that I overuse is this concept of responsibility. And so as a man, All of the things that I was supposed to be, responsibility was the undergirding thing that always showed up. So if I was there for you, I was there for you, and I was gonna be responsible to do the thing I said I was going to do. And then, uh, I met my wife. So this story is an important one because depending on how you hear this story could potentially put you in a position to decide whether you wanna judge me or not. And that's okay. I'm, I'm past it. We're 30 years in, so, you know, so what, who cares? And The transforming nature of how I was shaped as a husband, as a father, and how I think about malehood today is I met my wife because I recruited her to the university I was working at at the time. And I'd gotten permission, and I wasn't interested originally, but then she caught my eye because we were singing together because I sing too. And we sang on something together, and I was like, okay, she kind of nice. And then all of a sudden— Next thing you know, 30 years later, we're here. And I had to make a decision at that time, Chris, because the administration was like, you can't date a student and still be in, in a capacity of administration here. Mm-hmm. And whether I had permission or not, there was a decision I had to make. In my exit interview, I said, I will be able to find another job. I'll never be able to find another woman like her. And that was 30 years ago. And so whatever I knew then or whatever I was committed to, I think the undergirding of how I grew up informed how I made that decision and why I made it that way. And, and if you think about the decisions I've made throughout my life, it has been based in that fundamental thing that if I'm here for you, I'm gonna be responsible to you. And I don't give up on anything or anybody almost ever, except When I'm in a place where I just don't know what to do, and very rarely do I not know what to do. And I take that pivot because when I think about husband, father, I introduce the idea that we have had some really significant mental health challenges with our daughter. And because that has been introduced into our learning and into our lived experience, it has shaped how I think about just people's health, how I think about how My wife and I say all the time, nobody's okay. Like, literally nobody is okay. And so the grace that we give in relationships and the tenderness that I come in all that I do had to reshape how I thought about responsibility. Because my daughter, while she had to be responsible, she wasn't responsible 'cause she didn't know why she was doing it. There was something biological that was happening. And so it wasn't just— something she knew how to do or didn't know how to do. So I had to change how I thought about the human experience. And so did a ton of work learning about neuroscience, dug deep into some of the coaching practices that I, that I use in the fundamental way that I show up today. And when I think about having children, raising children, and the, I don't want my children to be raised like I was raised. There was this push and pull 'cause I wanted them to have some of the foundational things and I didn't want them to be as bound to the things that I thought. So I'm in a constant state of deconstruction and every day that I wake up, I'm like, hmm, is that true? Isn't that true? Why isn't that true? And so as a man, as I present today, A lot of how I think about the concepts that come with masculinity or me as a man, they still are rooted in responsibility and they're not tied to me having to be responsible for someone else. So the pivot was always being responsible for or to someone else. Today, I'm responsible for me. The actions that I take and the things that I do help to inform how others have to take responsibility for themselves. And so, again, I'm consistently putting myself in a position to say, what's true, what's real, what's not, and how am I shifting so that I could be a better version and the best version of me when I show up wherever I have to show up? So hopefully that gives some good context for your question.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, CT, I've been biding my time here. And 'cause I could go on for hours and hours and days even just expressing my love for you. Um, but we don't have that kind of time. So I'll just leave it. I'll just park that bus there. Uh, Um, but you, you started talking about it a little bit earlier about your book.

Yeah.

Strong Core.

Yeah.

Um, and I'm curious, like you just shared with us, you know, all of the, well, maybe not all of them, but several of your layers.

Yeah.

Um, with us, how How much of that, how much of those layers of you are in your book?

Ooh. That's an interesting question. And it's a part of the journey I'm on. And so let me— work to do this a bit justice. I acknowledge and recognize that I am the author of the book, and everything that is within me wants others to be the book. A part of why I wrote it the way I wrote it started with me doing a survey out to about 100 people. And the heart for me was I've been doing coaching, consulting for years, and I've written books for years, just never put anything out. And The genesis was, okay, if you're gonna write a book, how do you want the words to be represented on the page? And it was, I want others' words. I want other people's words. I want, I want to hear from people who have experienced my coaching, my consulting, my, you, you fill in the blank. What was their experience? And so every chapter, every story that's within it are the direct words from the people who responded in that survey back in June of 2024. And I got 100 and some odd responses. I couldn't put all of them in there, and I'm grateful that we found a way to put a lot of them in there. Mm-hmm. And so it is me, and I never do anything by myself. I'm— I am— I am only as good as the relationships and the humans that I am connected and aligned to. And yet, I was the one responsible for having to actually write it and do the citations and do all the work that pushed it out so it could ultimately be published. And so, it— a part of the journey for me, Freddie, is a wrestle with accepting that there is another title I wear today, and that is author.

Mm.

And that's not something that was on the— proverbial bingo card, as they say. It was something I had thought about, but it wasn't something that was— I was pushing towards. And so to have that as a part of the narrative is still something I'm chewing on. Like, it's out. Like— Mm-hmm. I can't do anything about it now. Like, it's out there now. And so I appreciate deeply the question and The, the heart of everything I ever do is this true desire to ensure that while God will use my voice, uh, in spaces, I truly feel like my, my responsibility— there's that word again— is to amplify other voices. And so in anything that I do, if— Mm-hmm. When I execute a thing, I'm I'm honoring more than just my own humanity in anything I do. It is that, who else? So for example, the Strong Core posts that come out right now every other day, it is a spotlight. It's the Strong Core Spotlight and it's a selfie of somebody holding a book. And it, we've got posts every 3 days up until November. And it is, I don't care about any other posts I put out right now. I want to be able to show, like, mm, mm, mm, dang it. I wanna be able to show the heart of the community that is being built as a result of this body of work that's out there. And that's, it's humbling, not the right word. It's honoring of the people who would trust me. to allow them to be highlighted through the things that I am connected to. So I'm going to pause there because you tapped on something really interesting there inside of me. So I appreciate the question.

Yeah.

It sounds like a layered cake to me.

Yeah. Yeah.

That was carrot cake right there.

That was— yeah. I love carrot cake, man. It's my favorite. My fucking favorite. Well—

I just want to say real quick, because I was honored to be given a preview excerpt of your book before it even came out. And it, like I said in my review, storytelling at its finest. Mm-hmm. So please, please, I know we're going to say it probably numerous times throughout this episode, but Yeah. Get his book, Strong Core.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. I wanna talk about something 'cause you'll get your time to pitch your book at the end. You'll— we'll do that. But I wanna talk about this. So you started using words like leadership and layered cake and authenticity that was thrown around a couple times.

Uh-huh.

And you and I have had many conversations, right, around this. Um, but the— I want to come back to that in a second because, um, I've been waiting to have you on this podcast to have this conversation, um, because I don't know what's going to come out, but I think this is a really important conversation to uncover. So I'm going to give everybody a little bit of backstory first. Um, with the nature of the, the work that I do, um, I'm pretty open to the vast majority of things. Like, I truly practice like no judgment in many areas, and I'm a human, right? So like, I have areas that are edgy and that I sometimes don't want to take a look at. And in TMC, we had a retreat, which I would like you at some point to talk about your experience going into the retreat. But through the preface of this, I had many, many little nuances of, um, Christianity being brought up in my space right before coming to the retreat. And so much so that it was actually scaring me because I'm spiritually open in almost all contexts. But through my lived experience, I've had a really hard time with Christianity in general. Right. A lot of it has been, in my personal opinion, like really pushed on me, or there's not enough slowness, or I don't feel like enough care in my character to like have me like understand it and appreciate it. And you completely changed my view on spirituality at the retreat. And it's, you know, we talked about at the retreat, like being a leader is also knowing when to be a really great follower. And, um, I got to put off my leader hat quite a few times in that retreat. And there was quite a few experiences that came back to you. One of them that I would like to fucking share is, man, I still get goosebumps, man. When you washed my feet. Hmm. For everybody listening, C.T. at one point was so moved by what was happening in the space that he chose to wash my feet. And, uh, I don't know if you remember the, the way that you said it, but you invited me to consider that Jesus washed people's feet. And it was a really humbling experience. And, um, you chose to wash my feet in front of all the people that came there. And I wept like a child.

Hmm.

And, uh, since that point, you and I had had probably 4 or 5, 6, maybe more conversations around Christianity. And what I think is really interesting is that you never have once share with me anything around your faith, and I hate you for it. And— but what you have done always and consistently is ask me questions. So I'd like to tear down a wall today, CT, because I think some people actually believe this work is demonic, right? And like—

Hmm.

I now— I personally am very spiritually open to many things, but also Jesus in my life.

Yeah.

But you have created like this really whole, like a holistic container for me in my spirituality. And I'm just saying that all to share that you, you were like the walking example of what I believe Jesus was supposed to teach us here on this, on this earth. So I want to tell everybody that first, like, thank you for doing that for me. I love you and I'm in love with you.

Mm. Mm.

So I hope you can just hear that for a second. I don't want you to say nothing, like not a single thing. Just receive that for a second. And what I would like you to actually answer, which I'm more curious about than anything else, how has your faith been incorporated with this work? Because there's a large majority of people, Christian, that won't touch this work because they believe it's demonic. Or there's a lot of people that do this work that believe that they can't, like, align with Christianity in general. So please open up Pandora's box for us, please.

Oh my. I, I, number one, I receive what you shared. So thank you. Number 2, I am a words person. So every time you reference the word Christianity, while I understand in most social circles How it is used. I, in the way that God is allowing me to deconstruct how I was raised, I don't— and yeah, it's okay. This is good. Let's go. Let's go there. Let's go there. You asked it, so let's do it. Let's do it. I don't know that If the person of Jesus walking in the context of the Bible— I have a, I have a, um, in my practice, uh, I have a phrase that says, context on the content allows you to comment. When you are commenting on content without context, you create confusion. So to the extent that the context I wanna set around the comments that I would make will minimize any confusion and any comments that come, if they're out of context, it doesn't matter. So let me first set the context. The context in this sense is that I'm not speaking from the seat of a sociological term that suggests that a religious organization, faction, or societal way of thinking about Christianity is where I'm coming from. And so how you've positioned it would suggest That whoever hears the— whoever hears that word is now filtering it through their own individual lived experience. And that is the wrong way to set the context for how I am in relationship with people.

Said it.

I am not— huh?

Said it.

I am not in relationship with religion. I am in relationship with a human. And always in the context of how I was raised is love is the principal thing. How I express that love or how that love is expressed through me, you get to decide. There's a phrase that I use is, he who owns the thought is the one responsible for the thought. I can share a thing with you, and if I'm trying to own how you're going to receive it, now I'm spinning. No, I— in the nature of how— just for context, how I was with Hugh Schmidt, it was, I'm in humanity with you. We are in layers. Layers would suggest there are spiritual things that are going on. If you want to think biblically in this way, the Bible talks about there's this duality. Even Aristotle said he was so much God, it was hard to believe he could be man, and so much man, it was hard to believe he could be God. So that duality existed in his existence here, in his humanity. And yet we still are both things at the same time. So if 2 things can be true at the same time, the context for how I show up in relationship is first in love, not in title, not in denomination, but in love, in our humanity. And if I am present with you, a part of the fullness of my existence means I'm meeting you where you are. And I am meeting you at a place that honors what you might need. And if I happen to have In that moment, in a biblical context, discernment, in a human context, intuition, uh, a gut feeling. However one, again, words matter. However it is that I chose to show up with you, that's what you needed and you got it, what you needed from how I was present with you in that moment. And so when I think about how we have irresponsibly chosen to pick sides. It's fascinating to me that every religious sect has 80% of what most believe are all the same. So, we're playing on the— we're playing in the margins. We're playing in the smallest place possible. And yet, if we ever did anything and we said 80% of that thing is the thing we should use, most of us would be like, I'm dealing in the 80. Mm-hmm. And yet, Most of us spend time in that 20. And so if you wanna play in the 20, then let's play in the 20, but let's play in the 20 in a way that speaks to language that says, I know what your 20 is, you know what my 20 is. And if ever there is a situation where you are saying Christianity and you're thinking W, and I say Christianity and I'm thinking Z, we're not speaking the same thing. And so it's always important to set the expectation and the context for anything that I'm having to share. Especially if there is potential tension in the conversation. And so for me, I show up in relationship always considering what is it that we are doing together and are we communicating in a way that we're speaking at least as close as we can aligned language, not necessarily agreeable language, but aligned language. And that aligned language allows us to actually get to a place where we can move together. And when we can move together, the idea is that that movement is closer to each other. And oftentimes when we use the wrong context where the, the way we're communicating is pushing us away from each other. And so when I think about the experience we had, each of the things we did as we were communicating in our humanity, we were moving closer together. So that moment, I didn't script it. I didn't know it. I was just present with you there, and that's what I discerned you needed. And, and however it happened afterwards, I'm not, uh, I, years ago I had to shift my intention around everything that I do.

Mm-hmm.

Um, there's this biblical reference that says, um, some plant, some water, but God gets the increase. How that's translated in my life is that I'm responsible As most men, I seed plant, so I'm planting seeds all day long. This, my words right now are planting seed on someone's ground. I water in other ground. My words are watering someone's ground. What I am not responsible for is what happens in the seeding and the watering. That's not mine. Yeah. And it has been deeply freeing in my life to not have to be responsible for what comes outta somebody else's ground. And yet, When I see it, I'm like, holy crap, that's beautiful. The genius of relationship is that the thing we planted there, I'm now seeing some of the fruit of it in this conversation we're having right now. So without having given some deep intellectual way of considering how we might think about Christianity, I am not in any way, shape, or form thinking that all, any of us should ever live in that box. We are— the box is open. I am in humanity with you, and I need to meet you where you are. And I do believe if you want to go there, that that's where Jesus did. And Jesus was the most curious person ever. He asked lots of good, great, beautiful questions. And if I was ever going to say I'm like Jesus, it's 'cause I ask really great questions.

Hmm.

Hmm. Thank you.

Yeah. I, um, thank you so much for that, CT. What a beautiful and eloquent way to express your spiritual self, right? And share that with us. Um, and with Smith. What a powerful moment. I wasn't there, but I imagine what a powerful and moving moment that was, not just for Smith, but also for you and for every other man present. Yeah. And, um, I can't help but reflect on your name, Christopher.

Christlike.

Right? It literally means Christ-bearer, one who carries Christ in his heart.

Yes. Yes.

Right? And brother, you live up to that name. I can absolutely tell that. And one of the things that I do love about Jesus is one of the— is what you touched on. And there's always the 20%. That's always going to be there. Jesus really grounded in the 80. He sought out the 80.

Yeah.

He didn't come and say, how are we different? And let me punch you in the face because of how we're different. He sought ways to find alignment, to find commonality, to find beauty, to find love, to find connection, even with people when everyone around him were judging. Yeah. Oh, that's a sinner. Oh, that— don't you know who you're eating with? You know, the woman who was crying her tears on his feet and washing his feet with her tears, with her hair, who was a prostitute, and everyone's judging. If only he knew what sort of woman this was. But he didn't care about that. He didn't look for that. He knew it was there.

Yeah.

But he sought out the beauty, the love, the 80%, the commonality. And I would like to offer to you as a reflection, that's how I experience you as well.

Mm.

Mm.

Wow.

I'm

going to sit with that.

I am growing out my hair. So if I come cry on your feet and wash it— Are you saying you're a prophet?

Is that what's happening?

Judge not, lest we be judged, Schmidt.

I'm judging, bro. I'm excited.

We all are sinners in our own way. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

There's so much you can, there's so much you can do with that though. I know, Chris, you got something to say, but it's, it, it, in some respect. So let's, let's play. Let's play, right? So we play with terms, right? So. In some respect, the most selfless thing a prostitute does is give of themselves. I don't want to be messy, but I do want to honor the idea that the sacrifice, whatever— how we've defined what that sacrifice is, we call it bad. And yet in the text, if the Bible would suggest that all things are working together for the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose, some people do a thing because they have to do a thing because they don't know what else then to do. Because they haven't discovered that they don't have to do the thing that they need to do. They just have to be. Mm-hmm. I digress. So in the context of this prostitute mentality, we are always prostituting ourselves. Yes. And yet, in the seat of judgment, because we've assigned it language to a particular thing, like Christianity, we've missed the genius of how Christ used the example of prostitute. It wasn't the actions, it was the opportunity that now that we have this assigned thing, Oh, look at what she did. She continued to give of herself. He gave of himself. It is the underlying layer of the thing. Can you look beyond the thing it's called and see the purpose within it?

Wow.

And if you can see the purpose within the thing, you can move. I used to say in my DEI days is that passionate people produce panic, but purposeful people gave permission for purpose, promise, participation, partnership. All the other Ps come with purpose. But when you're moving in passion, people can't meet you at your passion. And oftentimes when you pivot that so that purpose is defined, then when you're passionate in that purposeful moment, good God, good things can happen. Right. So I, like, we laugh and I'm like, words matter.

Right.

And the texture underneath, Why, why would, uh, a Christian book use that as an example? It wasn't about the prostitute, but it was about the prostitute. Yeah. And it was about what was underneath the purpose of how one became selfless in giving of themselves so much so that the sacrifice others condemned.

Yeah. Oh, all right.

And so, oh, sorry. This is— I felt, that felt good right there to me. So keep going, Smith.

You're good. Keep going, brother. I don't, I mean, whatever. Well, I wanna tie this back to, um, something that Freddie is, um, creating, um, and putting out in the world. But, um, with that also, like, I think you just put language into something that I've been, um, feeling for all my life, right? It's like the being of it matters. The deeper context of it matters. Yeah. Uh, what's behind it matters. 'Cause I think, uh, uh, many of us in the world have phenomenal intentions, or we're just so scared that we don't know how to receive love. Or get love, right? And, um, I really appreciate what you're representing right now from you using those words, because I think you are representing what I also got from your previous share is our humanity. Yeah. When we can touch each other with our humanity, What a divine experience that is. And yeah, and, um, you know, speaking about language, um, I don't know how much you want to share of this, Freddie, or if this is too early to share with the world, but, um, I know you have a lot to say on this too.

Yeah. Um, what, what I will say is, because one of the things that you said In your share, CT, was that caught my attention, of course, was it's a— this is going to get messy.

Into. I

said, I said, you better get into messy. And, you know, when I reflect on my experience with you at Um, if I could, I mean, there are so many words that I could use to encapsulate my experience with you, but if, if, if I had to choose one, uh, one word that encapsulates my experience with you at the retreat, it was intimacy. Yeah. And I'm curious, what is your interpretation, relationship, definition, whatever? What would you like to share specifically around, you know, this conversation around masculinity and maleness and manhood? How do you— what's your worldview, your perspective? On intimacy.

In love with.

Yeah.

I came out of that retreat having a new, having new language around what it means to be in love with. And however I went in not recognizing, or the, the, the paradigm I had around how men loved other men. I walked away from that retreat in love with men. Mm. Period. I have experienced abuse from men when I was younger in church. Um, after being prayed, prayed for, had, was abused. I, I have ought with men because many of the men that I've experienced in my life haven't been kind. They've always wanted something from me. And so it always became a measure ring stick, if you will, of I am open to receiving love from men when I give them something. And that retreat opened me up so deeply 'cause I didn't, I didn't have to be, no, I didn't have to do anything. I just had to be. And I can't remember, it was maybe it was the last day. It was like, it was, my heart was illuminated with the idea that, no, I'm in love with, and I'm writing a book about that, so stay tuned. Mm-hmm. But it's like being in love

with

men is not a— it's the best, most honest way to be in love with you if you are a man. And didn't have full appreciation of how I wasn't loving me as a man without all of the performative stuff that comes with it.

Yeah.

And that retreat was just, no, just, we love you for just who you are. Y'all didn't, y'all didn't know me from anybody.

Yeah.

Like, I didn't, I hadn't met Nate, I hadn't met any of y'all. And from the moment we stepped in and we're dapping each other up and giving each other a hug, we've been on calls and stuff, but we've never met. And that was just, and Smit, to the point, like, I wrestled with, should I go or not?

Yeah.

And—

I remember.

Yeah. And my, I think the word I would give is I gave myself permission to be open.

That part.

Also recognizing that that openness would create access. to things that might be uncomfortable. And how I talk about uncomfortability today is in the context of being unfamiliar. And so the more familiar I became with you and what was happening in the environment, the more comfortable I became. And the more comfortable I was, the more me I could be.

Yeah.

And so that was, that was a genius of it. So the intimacy of that experience opened me up to know that I can be in love, period. And with whomever, and most specifically with me.

Yeah. Wow. Thanks, man. You know, I'm just sitting with this right now because, yeah, I know we've joked about Chris not being able to come to TMC like 1,000 times on this podcast, but this is the interesting thing, right, around TMC is like it is because it's such a sacred container, the rest of the world doesn't always get to hear about it.

Mm-hmm.

Like, it has its purpose, and it's very nuanced for what we're creating for, you know, these specific men that are walking in. And it's not necessarily that we talk about being Black or being brown. It's just a safe place for people that, you know, are Black, Indigenous, people of color, brown, Asian, Mexican, doesn't matter. To like show up. And it just sat with me like, wow, I don't think I've— I'm actually kind of like nervous, you know, maybe anxious or excited, maybe even. I think that's the same emotion, um, for other people to hear about it. Mm-hmm. Because in my eyes, like, I, I love all the other retreats and the experiences that we've been on, and I firmly believe that retreat, what we created all together, it wasn't just a me thing or, you know, my partner's thing. It was our thing. What we created together was fucking ridiculous. It was amazing.

Yeah.

I mean, not having been there, but that is the lived embodied experience of masculinity as medicine. That's, that's what we talk about here, right? Is men, especially men who may never have felt entirely safe,

Wow.

In their skin, in their life, to come into a place where it is safe and to where they don't have to do in order to receive love. They just get to be in order to receive love.

Um,

I'm so glad that you, that you named it, Smith, as a sacred container, because that's really what it is. This is where the magical work happens. This is where the medicine flows and people can access the power of their masculinity in ways that they never have before. And I'm so, so glad that that space exists. And I'm so gratified, CT, that you had the chance, that you answered the call, even if you were on the fence about, should I go? Should I not go? Man, I'm just, I'm so happy for everyone involved that you were there and the interchange of masculine magic could happen. Yeah.

Whew. May I offer some language here that I think is for somebody that may be listening who doesn't understand the concept of safe? Mm-hmm. Because I don't know that that's what men need. I— 'cause I didn't feel safe. There was nothing about that choice that was safe.

Yeah.

So, there's something layered about how we position opportunity for what came— I'm gonna say it the way it came with me. The opportunity for us to love ourselves. Hmm. And love isn't always safe. Not, not in its truest and most authentic form. And, and, and maybe it's, it's the nuance in the play and the terminology, but in, in the context of sacred containers and spaces, those are not safe, but they are protected. And, and maybe Maybe the way that one can position it for acceptance for some men who have never felt protected, maybe that's the— maybe that's the language shift in that. I don't know. And again, I'm speaking to think right now. I don't know. that safety is something I feel or sense. But I— 'cause that wasn't safe for me.

Mm-hmm.

But I did feel held. I did feel protected. I did feel accepted. I did feel— because there's some stuff that we did that wasn't safe, like, and it still threw me off. And there was one moment where I'm like, I'm not okay. Like, no, no, for real, I'm not okay.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I was, and maybe Chris, to the, the point, maybe that's where the context or the concept of safety was introduced. But, but again, it, it wasn't that I felt safe to do the thing. It was felt, I was like, I was supported, I was held up. I was like, I didn't feel like I was by myself.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and so there's something layered in there that I think oftentimes people don't show up because we have We have created this pathway where we want people to feel safe. I don't, I don't know that I want people to feel safe when they're doing really hard work. I want them to, to know that you can do the hard thing and, and not know that, um, you can do the hard thing and know that you're not alone in it and that, that you're protected. It's okay. You actually might bump your elbow. You might fall down, but you're not gonna fall down and be alone in doing so.

Yeah.

And to me, and I'm taking a long time here, but to me, in the fullness of me and what I've wanted to embody in my sons is the idea that I don't care what choice you make. I am most interested And have you thought about what the outcome of that choice would produce? And if you haven't done that, then we haven't done a good job of making sure that you're doing the layered work in your decisioning. So I was like, choose, do it. That's the thing that God honors. God honors choice. What God honors choice, period. He doesn't tell us what to do. He may give us an instruction about what might be best for us to do. And then he says, okay, well, if you do that, then this, there's an if-then that exists in that context. And so for me, It becomes this really beautiful, again, retreat. Wasn't safe, but man, those, those men loved me. Those men protected me. Those men held me up. Even when the thing I had to do, I was frightened, scared, and I did it anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I don't know.

I really appreciate that distinction around safety. I had never really thought of it through that lens before. Like, yeah, we do— well, people in general, whether you do it or not, like, people in general do things all the time, like bungee jumping or skydiving. Well, skydiving is pretty safe, but like— Uh. But like, there are things that we do all the time that are not inherently safe, but there are, as you languaged, there are protections and precautions, you know, that we take in order to make the space feel or the room feel, you know, protected, as you said. So I really, really appreciate that distinction. And, you know, someone can say all day long, you know, we're creating a safe space. But if the other people that are there don't feel safe.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just because you said it doesn't mean it's safe.

Yeah. And I, and I think this kind of also goes back to like what we were saying before. It's like, it's the context of the word that matters, not actually like the word.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know? And I—

That's right.

And, um, yeah, I think that's like the, when people say safe space, I'm like, what does that mean to you now? 'Cause I'm like, I have no idea what that fucking means still. Right? Like it's—

Yeah.

Like, honestly, like, I mean, uh, we've all done much of our own work and also have done men's work, right? And even I could ask myself, Freddie, you, Chris, Chris, right? Any of us. It's like, it is scary sometimes.

Yeah.

But like, what's, you know, what, how do you wanna be scared? 'Cause you're gonna be scared anyways. So do you wanna do it with somebody else? Would you rather be held? Right. So that's how I experience it. Um, yeah, for me too, because I, I think that's a tricky word. It's

a,

it's a trap. Yeah.

Yeah. And there's a level of what— another thing that came up for me with that distinction is there was a level of trust. Like there's trust, like, you know, we're cultivating a trusted space where, where we can be unsafe.

Yeah.

And trust that I'm going to do something unsafe and I'm trusting that I will be okay as I navigate and process through that experience.

Yeah. Yeah.

We could be here all day. There's words, language, language. Like, oh, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna play with that. Like, and

yeah.

So I'll, I'll be good. Smith, back to you.

Oh God. I mean, what is time? I don't know.

Uh, it's all made up. Yeah.

Constraint.

I know we're coming, you know, close to this experience, but I, um, something that I'm feeling that I really want to like express too is like, Chris, thanks so much for like cheering, cheering us on too in our like men's work. Yeah.

Yeah.

And holding us. And, um, I hate the word ally too. Like, that's one of the other words I hate. It's so stupid.

We're all brothers, man.

Yeah. Right.

We're all brothers holding and supporting each other. And however, whenever that expresses, like, you've held and supported me in so many ways. And there are so many ways that I look forward to continuing to do that with and for you. That's what it is. To love one another.

Yeah. Well, I think it's also like what CT said, like, I'm just so, I'm really feeling it right now and it might be the mushrooms that I took beforehand. Um, but, um, the thing that I'm really like currently experiencing is, um, like, I feel like you always meet the humanity also, like where it's at, like, especially in this particular context. Um, Yeah, I know we, you know, have ideated on this at maybe one point, but I can't wait for you to also meet some of the other people in this space and for me to tell other— wait, listen, for me to tell other people that like, hey, this is how this guy like held me through like this work too. So I just wanna say thank you because, um, I can't imagine, right? Like the, yeah, the experience on, on your side, but I'm very grateful.

A little bit of FOMO, but that's all right.

Well, I— fine, go ahead quickly though. We're running out of time. Let's go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I just want to say real quick, I want to thank you as well, CT. And I want to thank you. You know, Smith alluded to it earlier, and we'll talk more in depth about it another time, but the model that I'm creating, or that I have created, called DAISY.

Yeah.

And it stands for dignity, agency, integrity, stewardship, and intimacy. And I want to thank you for being the embodiment and the walking, moving, breathing, vibrating, energetic, Example of Daisy. Thank you. In love with you.

Yeah. So much love. Goodness gracious.

Uh, CT, with the time we have left, 30 seconds or less, my friend, as you're feeling all the love, tell the world about your book. Why should they get it?

Strong Core is about you choosing to consider that there is something deeper that you wanna learn, understand, and know about yourself. And the stories, illustrations, the framework that live inside of it are just a guide. I shared with someone my hope, even though it's not a strategy, is that you would hear my voice in the pages.

Hmm.

And when you read it, I want you to look in the mirror and see you in the pages. Hmm. And when you do that well, you'll have a stronger core.

Hmm.

And that stronger core gives you permission to show up in relationship deeper. And when someone brings you conflicting tension in your life, you're not wrestling with your value. You're simply sitting with the best version of who you are because you've done the work. That's why you should get the book.

Uh, 30 seconds on the dot. Nice work.

Well, that boy good.

That boy got— I think that's a perfect place to wrap. Yeah. Thanks, man, again for being on this podcast. And yeah, thanks Freddie and Chris and Yeah, even me, right? For, for being here holding the space together. So let's finish it off. Thank you guys for tuning in to the frequency, and thank you everybody else listening in, because this was another phenomenal episode of Wine Kings Unite as we explore context and shifts and all the layer cakes that life has to provide for us. I'm feeling just the gratitude of knowing that I also get to be supported through that. So I hope you all find that today as well by listening to our podcasts. And we all hope that you have a glorious day full of love.