Our Origin Stories: Meet the Kings | S01 E03

Welcome back to When Kings Unite, the podcast where we explore masculinity as medicine. My name is Chris, and I'll be honored to be your host for this very special episode. Up until now, we've talked about what masculinity can be, what the Divine Masculine embodies, and we've even, even started to bust some myths. But today we're taking a turn. Today we're going to pull the curtain back a bit to share our own journeys. You'll hear from Freddie, Smit, Wes, and myself about the paths that led us individually to this work, how we discovered Ontological Coaching, and what brought the 4 of us together to create this podcast, When Kings Unite. By sharing our stories, we hope you'll find reflections of your own journey and feel an even deeper connection to this powerful community we're building. So settle in, And enjoy our personal stories of When Kings Unite. All right, Kings, it is so good to see you. Welcome back into the studio, and I'm so excited to be with you here for this episode. Um, personally, I don't know about you, but I'm a fan of, like, in the superhero franchises, the origin stories and kind of understanding how these beings kind of came, came to be. Like, what, where did they come from and what's the story behind them? And so I am so excited to get to know more about your origin stories as well. I mean, we've known each other for a while now, and I think I know a little bit, but there's always some gold to be uncovered there. Uh, so I'm Really excited to learn more about that. So I'll start with— I was thinking maybe we could just kind of go a little bit kind of one at a time, and whichever one of you would like to speak up first, I would love to hear more about what brought you here into men's work and into Ontological Coaching and a little bit about the story behind it. And maybe there was a pivotal moment or a turning point that brought you here.

Yeah, happy to share. I'll kind of tell the story of how I got to this phase of my life. Essentially, it was I had been pretty depressed my whole life, was doing all the things that, you know, you learn you're supposed to. You go get a good job or whatever. For me, it was consulting, which I pretty much immediately hated. But was like, well, I guess this is adult life. Um, I guess I'll just try to gaslight myself into being grateful for this thing. And ended up going into corporate strategy and tech, which was maybe a step in the right direction, but was essentially still that same kind of uphill battle. And eventually I kind of came across this 3-month crash course in mortality. Where the first real brush with death I've had as an adult, where my grandma passed away, my mom, due to the stress of caring for my grandma, was like losing vision in one eye, and even my cat at the time had to go to the emergency room. This was over the span of like 2, 3 months. And so I was like, what the fuck is going on? Naturally, it raises like the questions of like, you know, what, what am I on this earth to do? Like, what is life really about? And after that, I really could not bring myself to give a fuck about essentially getting people to click more ads. And yeah, ended up losing that job, which ended up being such a blessing for me because it was a reset of like, well, if I get to say how things go, if I get to choose and follow my passions and earn money from that, like, what, what is that for me? And so I ended up going into freelance writing. Um, from there, my life started further breaking down. I had just moved down to LA with my girlfriend of 4 years at the time. That relationship started breaking down. So Over this time, like my career, my relationship, my living situation, even my relationship with my parents was pretty rocky at the time. Like every major structure in my life had been broken down. And around that time, I met my first ever life coach who actually contacted me to help her do like website copy and offered me some discounted coaching as part of the deal. And She ended up being exactly who I needed at exactly the right time. And like, yeah, the biggest mindfuck for me was learning from her, like, oh, I actually already have all the answers. They're in my intuition. I just need to listen to myself and tune into what it's telling me. And ever since then, I just knew I wanted to create that same transformation for others where I went from like this kind of rock bottom essentially to— Being on my dream life path where, um, yeah, eventually leading toward full-time coaching and feeling really good about all that in the process, um, was kind of reflecting on my relationship to masculinity and how like I had grown up believing that masculinity was just bad and that I had to reject it, that I had to like embrace only the softness and kindness and whatever else that is that you don't traditionally associate with masculinity. And I kind of set this intention a year or two ago where I was like, I want to explore what healthy masculinity looks like for me. And during that year, during Chris and I's graduation from our coaching program, we met Smith, who was like, oh, I actually lead a men's group for men of color. Like, why don't you check it out? And it's been a really good journey ever since, exploring my own relationship to masculinity and cultivating the divine masculine in myself.

I love that. Thank you so much, brother. And So much of what you share, um, I can really resonate with, especially the part about feeling like you're at rock bottom. And that's when it's like this hand just kind of reaches out to you from the mist and says, you know, I'm here to help you. And actually, I'm here to help you help yourself, right? Um, my experience was actually pretty similar. I'm a little bit older than you, Wes. Um, but, uh, I was, uh, much— so I, I say that simply to say I'm, I was, I'm much further along in my life's journey and my life experience when I had that experience of hitting rock bottom. I was, um, I was at, at the end of, uh, a long, very long, long-term relationship, a 19-year marriage. Um, it was one that for all of the societal and cultural Expectations and reasons lasted far longer than I think it probably should have. I was there in my mind; the relationship was over for years before I actually made the decision to to have that be physically out in the world and not just in my head. Like it was in my head; it was like done, but I didn't have the courage to have it be actually done. And so I was at the point where I was finally there. Um, I was ready to finally stand up and say, this is not for me. And again, this is after 19 years with 2 kids in the mix. There's a lot of complications here. Um, at the same time, I was really unhappy with my job. And it was one of those things where people say, what is wrong with you? At the time, I was working at Google. Like, it's one of the preeminent tech companies that are out there. You know, when you're there, you've made it, right? No one ever leaves this. Why would you possibly ever leave this? You're at the pinnacle. And I was so wildly unsatisfied, so unhappy. I felt directionless. I felt purposeless. And it was just the monotony of getting up every day and going and doing this thing, as you kind of said, Wes, just to get more clicks or to get more, you know, ad revenue.

Yeah.

And, uh, at the same time, the trifecta for me was I was also experiencing a, um, a crisis of spirituality. Um, I was raised and lived for up until then my entire adult life in, um, a fairly closed and insular, um, conservative Christian faith. Um, and I had never really— I won't say I hadn't questioned, but I had never really, um, even thought about what it would be like to not be a part of that community and not be a part of that faith. It was so core to my identity, while deep down knowing that there were parts that really weren't resonating with me that I was just accepting. I was going along to get along, but it just wasn't really down there. So all of this kind of foundational— I say the cracks were showing up in the foundation of my own identity and who I was, um, as a husband, as a father, as a spiritual man, as an employee, like what I'm here to do, my purpose and my work. And that was when someone kind of the first time someone was like, hey, have you ever thought about working with a coach? I got a recommendation, worked with, I found a coach named Ken and he was just this beacon, like such a lifesaver, really helped me ground. And as you said, Wes, just really understand that I do get to choose and that all the answers are within me. And it's just a matter of clearing out kind of the storytelling that I've been doing for so long. So that's what kind of got me exposed to this work of transformation. And firsthand, I saw, you know, the power of what that was and how it's— how working with a coach supported me through standing for what I really wanted for myself in relationship, what I really wanted for myself in career. I did wind up leaving Google and went to a startup. I wound up ending the marriage. And as you all know, I'm so happily repartnered with an amazing woman, which is— it's one of those things where I almost feel bad because I look around and see how many people who don't have the kind of relationship that Monica and I have, right? Who are in just relationships that are painful, that are not as fulfilling as ours. And it makes me sad and it makes me angry that this is something that I have that other people don't have, and I want to give it to them. Um, all of which is to say, like, all of this transformation was so powerful for me that fast forward a couple of years when Monica, who was also in, in the corporate tech world, decided to leave. She had no idea what she was going to do, but she knew that wasn't it. And, uh, she left and followed her path of heart. I was like, what would that look like for me? Like, wow. So that was when I had this idea, well, maybe this coaching thing would be for me. You know, I've, I've had a chance to be a leader in my corporate, uh, my corporate life, and one of the most powerful and, and impactful things for me in my career has been those moments of mentorship, of, you know, being with— seeing the greatness in people and the possibility in people and working with them to help kind of expand that and, and so they could stand in it. And I said, well, maybe this coaching thing would be cool for me. So I called around, asked around, and Got connected with Accomplishment Coaching. And that was the first time I met Wes, was when we walked in for Module 1 together. And boy, did we know what we were in for, right? But what powerful training we had there. And so that's as it relates to kind of coaching work and transformation. In terms of men's work, completely out of the blue, I went to my first men's retreat about 2 weeks before our first module of Accomplishment Coaching. It was something that I never really felt drawn to or that I questioned. But what I did know about myself is that I had some pretty incomplete examples of masculinity in my life. I was raised by a stepfather. My biological father was not in the picture for much of my childhood or my adult life. Didn't have any sort of relationship with him. And my mom remarried my stepfather when I was like 3 or 4. So he's pretty much the father that raised me. And he had a lot of generational wounds, a lot of generational trauma. He was not emotionally available. He was unwilling to seek therapy or help or to do any sort of work. And so I grew up being raised by a man who was deeply wounded by what masculinity is and means. And I could see that. I didn't necessarily take it onto myself, but I could see what it did for him and for his relationship with my mom and his relationship with, with me as one of his adopted children. And I didn't want that. I also, like you, Wes, felt that, you know, the bigness, the warrior, the strength of masculinity is harmful, something to be afraid of. And so I definitely leaned much more towards the softer man, if you will. I didn't take on the mantle of the guy who was out, you know, chasing the chicks in the bars and you know, racing cars and motorcycles and being that kind of stereotypical, prototypical dude. I was the, the, the soft, emotionally available kind of, um, nice guy, if you will. Um, so, but that left a little bit of curiosity for me is like, I don't want necessarily the distance that I saw in my, in my father, my stepfather. I call him my father. And I see that there's something available for me in standing in the strength of masculinity that's different than what I'm currently holding as masculinity, but I don't know what it is. I don't know where it is. That's what had me go to this men's retreat. And I got a little peek, I got a little glimpse in there, but, you know, it's just— it was just the first. Started reading a lot of books, started listening to podcasts and following people on Instagram and going to further men's retreats. And then I mean, we'll get into it a little bit later, but then, you know, when getting the chance to meet you, Wes, at the, you know, in our coaching program, and then Smith towards the end of our coaching program, and then Freddie was introduced by Smith as well, I was like, there's something here. There's men here that I can learn from, that I can lean on, and that can show me ways of being a man that I might not have seen before. And so completely a work in progress in terms of my relationship with my masculinity. But I'm so grateful for this work because I think the world really needs what we have to offer.

Thanks for sharing that, man. I'm just already deeply touched by all of y'all's stories so far. And I also have it that Freddie has an incredible story that I can't wait to hear. And it also really presents Really gave presence for me, how this journey has been for me. And I really appreciate the space to, to look at it. I think my normal experience is that I get to share parts of this with some people, but to be able to share it with the larger world, like, I feel like the power behind it, and I'm really excited to share it. And it really actually leads into my story where, like, I want— All of me to be loved. And how it started off for me, and I think really the place to start is when I was actually 5 years old. I was probably one of the most shyest kids ever. Like, I would look at somebody that wasn't my parents and I would bawl my eyes out. And in our particular family line, we have like a history of like heart disease and strokes. And so my parents really wanted me to be in like a physical endeavor really early on in my life. And we tried everything. And not only was I shy, I was picky. Like, I didn't like soccer because of the coach. I didn't like basketball because of the coach. I didn't like whatever else you could input in there because of the community or the coach coming into it. And so I had like a really hard and interesting relationship With like really anybody that was outside of my inner circle. And even as a 5-year-old, I remember being really attuned to this. I'm like, this person does not feel safe for me. Like, I can feel their agenda running through this, like, platform or game or practice. And I wasn't necessarily all about it. Not that I think it's bad, but I just remembered like Where is the space for me? And that was like the thing that I, I realize now that I was questioning internally. And what really changed, and this is like the last thing on my parents' list where they wanted me to try martial arts. And I tried, like I said, everything that you could possibly imagine at that point. And I think I said no right away. And then my parents like put on an episode of Power Rangers that night and I I realized for me that was like the first time that divine intervention really came in where I saw these Power Rangers like kicking butt, like taking names. Like, it was awesome. And I literally walked up to them and like, they were like sitting in like their bedroom and I like kind of shook them because they were like half asleep. I was like, can I, can I try karate? And so they were so excited and they booked me for a lesson. I ended up going to my first lesson and I was so scared shitless that I peed my pants. And it was awful. But the really cool part was that instructor that was there didn't even bat an eye. I would have thought, like, oh, gross, or I can't believe you did this, or it's okay, we'll get him through it. But it was just like, hey, don't worry, dude, we got you. And he was really honest. Like, this has never happened before, but we'll figure it out together. And I remember him saying that and I was like, oh, I feel safe. And I got like a free uniform that day because my clothes were soiled and all this stuff. And I did a lesson. And even though I was really scared, like, I ended up doing it. And it was one of the better decisions that I've made throughout my life where I really got— I really understood like the people that I needed and I carried forward with that. And then kind of fast forward to like when I was 18, there was like a lot of ups in martial arts. And the common theme for me in my life was like always looking to authority figures though to figure out my answer. And that would happen definitely with my martial arts instructor. And it would also happen with my parents. And my parents really wanted me to go to school to become a doctor. And so without thinking a single thing, I was like, I guess I'm going to school to become a doctor. I'll see you guys in like 4 years, maybe like we'll catch up, whatever. I go to school and I very quickly realized that it was, it was not the thing for me. Like, I was not there for the right reasons for myself. And I was really depressed. Um, so really, like what you said, Wes, around like depression, like really hit for me. And, uh, I was really depressed. So I started doing a lot of like Substances, mainly alcohol, uh, was like the bigger one. And how I would think about it, I would drink heavily Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and then I would cut cold turkey for a few days. So I thought like, oh yeah, I didn't have a problem, but I was really running from something. And it really took a toll on my health. It really took a toll on my mindset. And the first night was cool, but pretty much every night afterwards, I was like trying to chase that high. And it was tough. Like, it was truly tough for me to live in that. And one of the really major things that happened around when I was 18, I took a Krav Maga instructor course. And one of my instructors at that point actually got trained through AC. And another way of divine intervention, I was training at a martial arts school and back at home. When I was there, and they were switching over some leadership. And essentially, I got to get connected to this person again. And they also happenstance, like, reached out the week before just to check in, and they were like, hey, how are you doing? And that was the first time someone asked me that in 2 years. And I fucking just, like, bawled. And I was like, I'm not doing well. I feel stuck. I feel confused. I feel upset. I feel angry. Like, I had all the emotions running through. And he explained the whole coaching thing, and I was like one of those people where I was like, fuck coaching. Like, are you gonna tell me what to do? Like, it's not gonna work for me. But I respected this person, so I was like, all right, let me see what it's all about. And through like a few other conversations, we ended up getting connected together. And this is the most pivotal moment in terms of at least my coaching journey. He really showed me what it's like to like live life from design and not be at effect of my circumstances, but also, and the really big thing is to like love myself through it. And I finally got a glimpse of that. And what I realized that I really wanted is not to feel this way anymore. And I was in school. And so I made the conscious decision after our coaching conversation, we planned it all out. And in the conversation, I was like, all right, I'm going to drop out of school this week. So I dropped out of school that week. And with that, like, my parents were angry, everything was happening. But I, at the time, realized that I just really wanted to do martial arts. So I went back to my martial arts school. I had got connected to the, a really great friend. Uh, his name is Joel, um, that owns it. And essentially we worked it out where I could work with him pretty much wherever I wanted. Uh, it was a lower starting pay, but like the experience and the thing that we agreed upon is like, great. Like if we can make it together, like we, we all get to reap the rewards. And I ended up making it happen. And it allowed me the opportunity to like really take a look at coaching. And Michael always was connected with me. Like he would text me, call me here and there. And he one day asked me, he's like, when are you going to become a coach? And I was like, that's not for me. Like, I can't do the thing that you did for me. And he stood for me. He saw the value in me. He's like, hey, whenever you're ready. And I was still going through some financial stuff. So he recommended me for the guest client program through AC. And I think we've shouted out AC like 50 times, but that program is phenomenal. I have nothing but phenomenal things to say about it. And I was a client for a whole year getting coached by different people. And I really got to see the power of the training from like literally the first week to the year. These coaches were different human beings themselves. Their coaching ability was like astronomical. And at that point, I realized that I really wanted to become a coach. Though, speaking about coaching and hard things, like one of my favorite parts about coaches is that they'll say the hard thing with love. And during the last day of the graduation, one of my favorite coaches, shout out to Alex over here, you know who you are. And he looked at me and he's like, You know, you— if you say, like, you want this thing, you can actually just have it. And he's like, what's actually stopping you from just having it? And I explained to him all this stuff and all the reasons that I couldn't. And he's like, yeah, and those are perfectly valid, and you can still choose something else. And he's like, also, would you like me to stand for you to choose something else? I was like, sure. And he got all the coaches on their graduation day to talk to me during their acknowledgment section, be like, you need to become a coach. And it shifted the game for me. I was like, all right, a community of people standing for me. Like, that's what I wanted. Like, that's why I started martial arts. Like, someone else saw it. A community of people saw it for me. And so I ended up— I had zero, basically zero money in my bank account. And because I wanted it, in 4 months I got the tuition paid up in full for the coaching program. And I became a coach and it was just phenomenal for me. And at the same time, like, I also realized there's parts of me where, like, they're not healed yet. But the reason that I do coaching is because, like, I'm way more than just the conditioning or the mistakes that I've gotten and received and And are still working through. But I am more aligned with who I am at my core, always, when I practice the work. And that's the thing that really keeps me in it and keeps me so, like, excited about it and wanting to talk with it to people. Because, like, this for me, like, it's gonna happen to all of us. Like, it happens to all of us. Like, life will life. And our— because we're human, we're gonna create walls and— We're gonna figure out ways to, like, not be aligned to who we really are. But, like, this work gets me back to that. And it's also started my journey around, like, men's work, where I started men's work because I realized that I was pretty shitty towards women. I cheated on a really good friend of mine. I was controlling. I cheated on my best friend, uh, with his wife. It was just terrible stuff that, like, that I'm working through, and I'm seeing the light through. But also at the same time, I'm like, no one fucking taught me any of this. Like, yes, there's ownership that I'm continuously taking. And also, like, where, where can I actually work through some of this stuff? Because sometimes my darkness is pretty dark. Like, I wanna, like, feel loved, and I'll do anything to get it. And when I found some different organizations of men's work, they were so beautiful. And one of the things that happened was Um, I think I saw this online at some point, whereas someone told me, if they're like, yeah, if you want something, create it yourself. Like, if it's not exactly how you want it. And I took— looked at that, I was like, okay, I love all these men's groups that I'm a part of, but it's not exactly what I wanted. And so I partnered up with my, my friend slash coach during the AC program that I was with, and we created a men's group. Together. And it's always a work in progress, but it's exactly what I want. And I think the beauty of it is like I get to see myself, other people heal. And I think the best part about what we created and how I look at leadership even is like the best leaders are also the best followers. Like they can lead from the front, but they could also sit back and like enjoy the ride and let someone else be. And like I see that from everybody there. And I see that from like the men that I'm a part of it. Like, there's so much more good to say about like the coaching world, like the people that do this work and that are committed to it. They're just different human beings. And despite any hurt or darkness that people have, I am confident that the light is bigger on the other side if we can work through it. And that's the thing that I like, I want for other people and I want for myself. And I love the work, and I think it's really beautiful, always.

Wow. Thank you for sharing your story, Smith.

Whew.

So much of what you all have shared resonates with me and aligns with my story. And yet my story is distinct. I'll start by saying that I'm a creator. I know even from a very young age, I knew that I was a creator. I loved— like, nothing energized me more than creating and being creative. I remember when I was 6 years old, my grandparents put me in front of a computer. And now, I was born in 1980, so this was like around 1985, '86. Uh, they, they got a computer and they put me in front of this computer and I just, just went to town. And, uh, one of the things that I loved doing was making things. Um, I think back then it was like PrintMaster Gold or PrintShop or something like that, these different programs. And I would start making stuff, cards, uh, invitations to things. Uh, and then once my grandparents saw what I was doing, they started like making requests like, Hey, can you make this for, you know, my fraternity or my sorority? And that kind of thing. So I think that's what got me started, like, really leaning into my creativity. So I've been a lifelong learner my whole life. I will continue to be so. And then that being a lifelong learner and also being creative. led me to becoming a graphic designer. So that's— so for 17 years, I was a graphic designer, freelance, and I also did some time working with Bank of America in New York City, the headquarters, as a senior graphic designer. So I did that for, on and off, for about 8 and a half, 9 years, almost 9 years. And I would say my journey into becoming a coach, if I had to pinpoint it, in some ways I feel like I've been a coach all my life to some degree. But I remember 2007, because I was born and raised in Louisiana, 2007 I moved to New York City. My best friend, who, who, though the person who would eventually become my best friend, Gene Toland. I asked him, like, do you have any? You know, this this is after several conversations that he and I had had up to that point. I was like, are there any books that you would recommend that I read or just around like personal development or mindset or because I think at that time the the secret had come out, like the video that there's a book and but there's there's also the video. that I had gotten. And so I watched The Secret, you know, about manifesting and that whole thing. But there were, there were just so many gaps and holes that I was left with. Um, I was like, there has to be more to it than this, than what they shared in the video. And so, so I asked Jean, I was like, is there something that you would recommend that I read that, you know, might be able to fill some of these holes? And he said, absolutely, The Law of Attraction by Abraham Hicks or Esther and Jerry Hicks. So I immediately bought The Law of Attraction, started reading it, and my journey into metaphysics and personal development, spiritual development, human development commenced, I believe, at that point. Um, but I, I continued, you know, my journey as a graphic designer until about 2018. Uh, 2018, I encountered a friend at a mutual friend's. Ironically, like at the time of this recording, we're just coming off of the 4th of July. Um, I encountered a friend at a mutual friend's 4th of July barbecue in New York, in Brooklyn, in 2018. And I overheard him talking to someone about this coach training program that he was about to graduate from with his life coaching certification. And my Scooby ears perked up. I was like, ooh. Because at that time, I was in the process of getting ready to move and relocate from New York to Dallas, where I am now. And I was also considering a career change because I was kind of over doing graphic design. I wanted to still be creative and do something creative, but I felt like there was more purposeful work for me to do. And as the universe would have it, I encountered this friend who was having this conversation. So I parked myself near where he was having that conversation and just listened. Longer story short, I had several conversations with this friend after that. His name is Aaron DeGraff, and the same school that he earned his certification with, called Ideal Coaching Global, that's the school that I ultimately enrolled in in 2019. Relocated to Dallas in November of 2018, and then January 2019 was the first, the first sort of conference in person. And at that time, the conferences were in person. That, that began my journey to, into coaching. And Ideal Coaching Global is, is an ontological school. The model is, the full model is called Ontological Mindful Ecological Coaching. So Ontology, of course, is the study of being and human beingness. Mindfulness is, you know, our presence and our awareness, being mindful and aware of our thoughts, emotions, behaviors. And then ecology, the interconnectedness and the oneness of all things and all life. And so it was this beautiful Beautiful model of coaching that just really spoke to me and resonated with me and made it an easy yes for me to enroll into this particular school for for my training because I didn't want to just do like a lot of people do and just slap hey I'm a life coach on my Instagram page and start telling people what to do and think that's coaching no so so yeah that that began my process and This particular training program was 9 months. So by September of 2019, I graduated with my first life coaching certification. A week later, got into a car wreck. Like 8 days after I graduated, got into a car wreck. Physically, I was fine. Emotionally, Destroyed, and it was almost as if the universe was saying to me, "Okay, you you got this new shiny certification. You a life coach now. You think you bad, right? You think you got it going on. Okay, let's see you put let's see what you got. Let's see what you're made of." And the wreck happened. And immediately went into, you know, I call it a functioning depression. Um, because I was still able to function, but I was, I was just deep, deep in, in my shit. And a big part of the reason why is because I was at fault for the wreck. And it was that part that I just could not reconcile because that was counter to who I believed myself to be as, you know, I was the perfectionist. I was the performer, right? You know, up to that point, I had a spotless driving record. That story was obliterated. So, longer story short, I continued to do the work through that depression. And that sort of leads into 2020, which is, of course, the pandemic started emerging at the beginning of 2020. And, you know, at that point, I was already, you know, sort of sequestered and quarantined because I didn't have a car. So I was like, hey, world, welcome. Welcome to To, to, to, uh, to the quarantine with me. And that's where I really got to do some really amazing work because, um, an opportunity presented itself to work with a company called Lyra Health as an emotional wellness coach. And one of my mentors, two of my mentors from Ideal Coaching Global recommended me for, uh, for a position with Lyra Health. And I applied for the position, got the position. And then started just like coaching my ass off, just like a really, really high volume of clients. Because I, you know, I had earned my credentialing through the ICF, International Coaching Federation, and I knew that I wanted the top credential. You know, I didn't want to settle for just the ACC or the PCC. I wanted MCC. So I was on a— I fast-tracked myself in that direction. Uh, so over the course of several years, I worked with Lyra Health. I worked with, uh, BetterUp. I worked with CoachHub, you know, several of these coaching organizations. Um, and on top of that, in 2020, at the end of 2020, I learned about a program through a school called IUPS, the International University of Professional Studies, who offers a combined master's and doctorate in professional coaching and human development. I said, where they do that at? I want that. I wanted that. That, 'cause that, again, that was part of my lifelong learning journey and my desire for mastery. December 2020, I enrolled into that program. And 2 years later, I completed the program, completed my dissertation. And that sort of segues me into the men's work because my dissertation— so I'll just give the title of my dissertation and I'll say it slowly because anytime I share it with people, they always say, can you say it one more time? So the title of my dissertation was, or is, Secret Vows: Cultic Underpinnings of Performative Masculinity Among Adolescent Black American Christian Males. Now, what had me do my dissertation and my research on that topic was my own journey. And I remember I was still living in New York, and I was scrolling through social media, and I came across this video clip. And it was a video clip of Jane Fonda. She was doing a women's event. And the moderator of that interview asked her this question. She said, you know, if there's something deeply burning in you that you want to share— it was like the end of the interview.

Mm-hmm.

And she asked Jane Fonda, is there— if there's something just burning inside of you that you want to share, what would that be? And I, like, I can't remember what she said verbatim, but, you know, it was— I'll never forget just the sentiment and the energy with her share. And it was— she was like, you know, I know we're here talking about women and women's issues, but she's like, If there's something burning within me to say, I have to put in a plug for our boys, 'cause our boys are in trouble. You know, they're not safe. They're not emotionally safe. They're called pansies and sissies and wusses. And, you know, and they don't know, like, how they're feeling. They're not given the room and the space to express. their fullest, you know, the fullest expression of their being and their emotions. And she was like, you know, it leads to this bifurcation, you know, head to heart. And we really have to do everything we can to make sure that our boys remain linked up and connected head to heart. I had never heard anyone share things like that, that I had felt and that I have observed. I had never heard anyone language it in the way that she did. And that's when I knew that men's work was going to be for me. Um, and so that's what had me do my dissertation. And my, my mentor, my advisor in my doctoral program was very He was very adamant and stayed on me in those beginning months of this program about really honing in and being specific about who— he asked me this question once and I said, wow, that's a really powerful question. He said, who is it that this dissertation is going to serve? Who are you serving? And immediately I said, I'm serving me. I'm serving me. I'm serving people that look like me. I'm serving people that share in my lived experience because I know I'm not the only one. So, so that's, that's ultimately what guided me into, into doing the men's work. And then, of course, last year, I'm coming up on a year now. Uh, I was, I was introduced to, uh, to Austin Walker, who, um, is one of the co-founders and co-facilitators along with Smith of, uh, the, the Man Cave men's group. And, um, like when I first met Austin, I knew, like, again, and I've shared this with him, it was love at first sight. So I knew that there was something bigger for he and I to do together. Um, and then, and then I would meet Smith a bit later. Um, but yeah, I'm coming up on a year of being involved with the Man Cave. And when I tell you, just being a follower alone in the organization was transformative for me. And now, you know, leaning into and being embraced as more of a leader with the organization is just— Taking things to the next level for me in my own growth and development, and I'm super grateful to to everyone in the Man Cave Austin Smith and and all of the members that that I get to do this work at this level, and it's it's it's beautiful. It's beautiful to be able to share. a space with a group of powerful, heart-centered men and share our lived experiences and be vulnerable and love the fuck out of each other in a way that we're not given the room to do. You know, that is— that's super important to me. Um, to be able to, like— and it's rare, I think. And I think that's why I love it so much, is because it's so rare to find a group of men who are even— excuse me— who are even open enough to share and be that vulnerable and, and, and to cultivate intimacy. with each other in such a powerful way and it not be— and it not need to be sexual, you know? And that's coming from someone who is saying gender loving, right? Like, this is completely independent and separate from my sexual orientation. I, I love men as, as humans first, right? And so I love, regardless of, you know, orientation, I have a very high bandwidth for love. And I love sharing that bandwidth and that energetic bandwidth with other men. So that's sort of like the fuel that just, that energizes my desire to do men's work and and coaching and any, any type of personal development, human development work. That's, that's my calling. And that's what I believe I was put here on this earth to do.

And you do it so powerfully, brother. We're, we're all blessed to walk this path with you. And I can't help but notice listening to everyone's shares, like we all have such— there's such variation in our journeys and our stories and where we come from. And there's so many similarities, too. Right? It kind of really shines a light on the commonalities that we all have as men in this world, despite our different backgrounds, you know, where we come from, our age, whatever it may be. The male struggle is real. The masculine challenges are real, and we all face them in our own ways. And, um, I'm— I, I count it a privilege and a blessing to be among you men who are standing up for something different. For men and willing to be proclaimers of masculinity as medicine, as something that is beneficial for this world. And so I'd love to talk a little bit about, just real briefly, it's been really powerful and inspiring to hear all of your stories of where you come from and what brings you to this work and to this moment. And also this podcast is kind of a thing, right? And maybe together we can all talk about the origin story of the 4 of us coming together and deciding to even do this. So, maybe I was thinking we could start at the beginning. I think, Wes, you and I are the first ones to know each other. Like I said, we walked into that room in San Diego a couple of years ago for Module 1 of our coaches training program and shook your hand and you shook my hand. And I think by the end of that weekend, we were hugging each other and be like, let's get phone numbers and really connecting. And then, right?

Yeah.

That was, that was the first time. I think we were the first ones to meet each other of the 4 of us. Right. And then the next one, at least that I had the chance to meet, was Smith. And that was fast forward about a year. Right. Wes, you and I walked into our, our final module of our coaches training program. And one of our leaders, one of the coaches training program leaders, was overseas, I think, for a wedding.

They—

and so they called in a replacement to come in. And here comes this guy with the biggest smile I've ever seen in my entire life and the biggest heart that I've ever seen in my entire life, Smith. And, uh, he's like, fuck shaking hands, man. He goes right in for the hug, like right out of the get-go. And I was like, okay, that's how it is. And, um, man, we just so clicked then. I don't know, Wes, if there's anything you want to share about your, your first experience of Smith as well.

That about sums it up. Yeah, big smile, big heart. Um, and I'll actually add, yeah, like Our leaders— it was such an interesting dynamic because by the end of the program, all of the participants training to become coaches, or at least certified graduated coaches, were men, and all of the leaders were women. And by then, I, I didn't even, like, know what I was missing out on. And Smith coming in, being this like firm, loving masculine presence was really powerful and healing for me. And I think it really showed too. And I think I mentioned this before of like the acknowledgments at the graduation of these women being like, yeah, I actually like hated men and like didn't feel safe around them at all. And like, Being around you men has felt so healing and grounding. And even, even for me as a man, like, having that male presence on the leadership side was really powerful. And so when he was like, yeah, I help— I'd like lead this men's group, I was like, I think this is the, the thing I manifested at the start of the year. It was like the call to explore my own masculinity. So yeah, fuck yeah, man.

And so that's when you two got connected, right? Was through the— was kept it going through the man cave? Is that what happened?

Yeah, my— I, I just really recall this moment. I feel super called to share it where I was like, we were still kind of in the midst of like really cultivating it. But the cool part was like, in coaching, there's this term like, we are the clearing for each other. And all the other men's groups that I was a part of, I was like, I really realized like, okay, I like, I need the space. But I was like, who's gonna be in this space? And it was like Very early infancy. And, um, Dad Wes was just like so open to it, which I, uh, like, as I shared in my story, some— like before, it was really resistive for me to like step into this work. And he was like, yep, I'm in, uh, I'll check it out. And the rest of it was like history, at least in terms of like our relationship, like every day by day, session by session, phone call, text, every single one, like Just got deeper and deeper and deeper together. And I do remember, though, texting you, Chris, and Wes about those photos. I ended up taking my girlfriend's camera to, like, take some pics of the graduation. But one of the things that always sticks out to me, Chris, that I don't know if I've said to you recently, was I think I said, like, hey, we should stay together. And you're like, oh, we're going to stay together. And that moment for me, like, really clicked. I was like, oh, that's a choice. And it just, like, really reminded me, like, the power of, like, connection in that moment. And I'm glad that, uh, we got to manifest that shit together, man.

100%. Here we are.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then, Dr. Freddy, you, uh, you got connected to Smith through Austin, right? Is that how that happened? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then, uh, so then earlier this year, um, there was kind of a self-development program that was going on down in Southern California. And, uh, I was like, oh, I got to get all the men I know. So I called up Wes and I was like, hey dude, we're going to do this thing. You want— you in? He's like, yeah, let's go do it. I was like, oh, let's get Smith. Oh yeah, let's go get Smith in there. And then I think Smith, you, you called on, uh, Dr. Freddie as well. So that was the first time that the 4 of us were actually together was at this self-development event earlier this year. And I, uh, uh, can I share my story? So we're, we're all flying. So I'm in Northern California. Wes, at the time, I think you were in the process of moving, or were you up here in, in Northern California? You're still down in Southern California? I don't, I don't remember, but it was pretty close actually.

Yeah, no, I had been living in SF for a bit and then had, yeah, flown back down too.

Got it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then, Smit is in the Midwest and then Dr. Freddy's in Dallas. And so, we're all flying in and we're like, hey, get there a day early. And, Smit had arranged the Airbnb, but he was flying in late. And so, I landed at the airport and I'm like, okay, I'm going to go to this Airbnb that I have the code for. And, there's a guy in there named Freddy who I've never met my entire life, but Smit vouches for him, so he's got to be a cool dude. You know, come rolling up in there in my car and, and walk in the door and Freddie stands up and we look at each other like, I don't think this is a handshake situation, right? We went right in for the hug and we sat like we talked for an hour and it was immediately like, like you were saying earlier in your share, Freddie. It's like, this is a man that I know that I'm going to love for the rest of my life. He's just such an amazing human being and we're going to be connected and part of each other's story for so long. And yeah, and then, you know, we did just that whole experience that we had for that, for that self-development weekend was super powerful. And I don't remember if it was then, but something came out of it was like, we 4 need to do something together. And, and then, you know, at one point I was like, you know, one of my previous jobs I had done like an internal podcast where they go, why don't we do a podcast? And, uh, and here we are. It's, uh—

Yeah.

Yeah.

I remember this one moment at, at towards the end of that, uh, that self-development workshop that we did together. There was this moment where, where the 4 of us were like huddled up in this 4-way circle, like this 4-way hug. And just, just that the, the beauty of that connection and the love that was You know, in that circle, in that cypher, was just beautiful. And I think that could have been, you know, the moment where we were like, okay, this is going to be a lifelong journey for us.

Yeah, we're all kings. And in that moment, we were so united. And I love it. We remain that way to this day.

Yeah.

I do have, like, one of the funnier parts when you were just sharing that made me laugh a little bit were I, my flight was like delayed like 6 hours. Um, and I'm like, oh my God, wait, these 2 random guys who've never met each other. And then like, it clicked at me in the airport. I was like, wait, no, they already speak the same language. And like, when I came in, you guys were like best buds. And I was like, this is dope. Uh, but I think like that, that is the flavor. Like even when all of us united in that moment, like huddled up with each other, it was like, We all felt it and we were open to it, like the connection. And like, that was such a powerful moment. And it's so beautiful how we got from that, from like all of our different stories to here now together. Like, y'all are my best friends and I love the shit out of you. Yeah.

Yeah, same. And I have to say this, man, when I, when I think about What I envisioned for Men's Work for myself, like, this is it. Like, this is a dream to be able to connect with other men and us, you know, share our lived experiences, our vulnerabilities, our deepest, darkest secrets with each other, and still choose to just love each other. down unconditionally.

It—

this is, this is a dream. So you all are, are a dream manifested for me. So thank you all for that.

I love that so much, brother. I can totally let that in. And, um, one of the things that I love so much about the 4 of us is the different lived experience and the perspective and the uniqueness that we all bring. I don't know about you all, but I listen to podcasts and sometimes it feels a little— maybe not tone deaf, but it's like a little one note because all of the hosts kind of are from the same thing. And when I look at the 4 of us, it's like culturally, like where we live in the country, where our family and our people are from in the world, you know, what the lived experience we've had, our age. The different work experiences we've had, the different relationship experiences we've had, the different ways in which we express love.

It's—

we've got every single base covered here. And I love that so much for us because to me it feels like we can really, in one way, one of us at least can speak for and represent every single man on this planet and resonate with every single man on this planet with what we bring into this space and into this work.

Amen to that, brother. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. And I also, like, I think I want to add this piece too. Like, this, for me to, like, choose into it, was an expression of, like, love and fun. And so I hope I can speak for all of us when I say, like, thank you to all the listeners who choose to step into this podcast. Like, we are here men doing the work ourselves, and we need more. We totally need more.

Absolutely.

So thank you for joining on.

We're not here telling people what to do like we've got it all figured out. We're figuring out our own shit along the way. And what I love about the 4 of us, uh, and the 3 of you— I'll, you know, heap the praise onto you, and, and hopefully I can live up to it somewhat— is that we, we're willing to share it, right? We're willing to live it, to own up to our shit. You know, to share our mistakes and our wins. But the point is that we're, we're focused on doing better and being better and on bringing the power of medicinal masculinity to the world and really being a strong stand for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Chris, you mentioned when you think about your relationship with Monica, you get sad and angry that not everybody has that. And I feel that way. About men who don't have something like this. Like, the male loneliness epidemic is real. There's so many men out there that don't have men or anyone that they can really talk to like this. Like, how many men out there can really sit down and have just an open, vulnerable conversation? And yeah, be in tune with their emotions. I was thinking of this, this Bill Burr bit where he talks about like, yeah, like men have all the emotions that women have. It's just we're only allowed— there's only real, really 2 for us. Like we're allowed to have anger and the rest is just labeled as gay and that's considered wrong and weak or whatever. And like, yeah, it just Feels like a really powerful mission of mine to let men feel seen and supported so they can be their full selves and trust that that's enough and that's accepted out in the world.

Yeah.

And I, I think on that note too, Chris, like, you've already done it. Like, you are included in that. You don't have to do anything more. Like, truly.

But I could— I can completely let that in. I can totally let that in. It's— that's part of my own story is, is, you know, not wanting to shine a light on myself when sometimes it's okay, right? Sometimes it's okay to step into your own bigness. So I'll include— I'll include myself, uh, in that.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah.

I want to— I want to put in a— since we're talking about men's work, I would feel remiss if I didn't do this, say this. And, uh, and put in a plug, um, for, uh, the Man Cave's leadership retreat. Um, because that's where I got to meet Wes and Smith in person for the first time. And yeah, it's great when we can, you know, connect virtually on virtual calls and, and, and that, that's That's very— I get a lot of value from that.

And—

oh my God. When I got to actually see you and touch you and pour love into you and have you pour love into me, that was— that's the work. And, man, like— Just, just the, the value that I got from that and, you know, the intention that I went into that, uh, into that workshop with, or that, that retreat, was to remember who the fuck I am. And I got exactly that through you all. Um, and we're, and we're going in for, for round 2 coming up in a few months. So. Definitely wanted to put that, um, you know, put a plug in for that because this work is, is just, it's such beautiful work and it can show, it can, it can happen in many different forms and many different outlets and platforms. And, um, so yeah, just wanted to put that in the space as well.

Thanks so much, Doc. I love you, brother.

I love you.

And whether we're up on time or not, I feel called to say this now.

Go for it.

Yeah, really, really powerful. And thanks, Freddie, for, um, for sharing that. I, I also believe that, like, that was one of the most pivotal moments in my life for different reasons. And for any person that's not a quote unquote BIPOC man coming into the space, we have a bunch of recommendations. Like, feel free to reach out to any of us. Um, you know, even myself, like, Chris and I are going to an Alchemy of Men retreat experience. Like, there's stuff out there.

Yeah.

Like, and all you gotta do is ask. Like, please, please, please reach out if you need something.

Yeah, we're always here to support anyone. We'll hold space for any man who reaches out to us. It's just part of our work. It's how we show up in love in the world. And as Smit mentioned, we are a little bit up on time. So this brings us to the end of what I hope has been a deeply connecting episode of When Kings Unite. And as you've heard, each of us has walked a very unique path to arrive at this shared mission that we hold of exploring masculinity as medicine. And our stories, our history, our experiences with all the twists and turns, the ups and downs, are part of what fuels our passion for this work. So to all of you, our listeners, thank you for allowing us to share a bit more of ourselves with you today. Now that you know a little bit more about the men behind the voices, we hope you feel an even stronger bond with the work we're doing. The wisdom we aim to bring to you each week and how powerful this medicine can be. So join us next time as we dive into the power of emotional attunement. We've talked about it a little bit today, and we'll talk more about that in our next episode. Until then, keep exploring your own story, keep cultivating that divine masculine within, and always remember, you are worthy. We'll talk again soon.

Thank you.