Reclaiming Masculinity: Debunking Common Myths About Men | S01 E01

Welcome everybody to When Kings Unite, the podcast where we explore masculinity as medicine. Join Freddie, Smit, Wes, and Chris as we give voice and reverence to the divine masculine within all of us. Self-initiated Purposeful, yet warm, playful, loving, intelligent, and deeply present. This is a space for deep presence, emotional intelligence, and the embodiment of dignity. In this episode, we're going to be looking at what even is masculinity? What is the point? And what is the power behind it? Are you ready? Let's begin. Alrighty everybody, we are here on our first podcast of When Kings Unite. We have Dr. Freddie Sanders, we got Chris, and we got Wes here in the house. And today we're going to be exploring really what masculinity means in this crazy world of ours. So before we get going with this, let's just do like a quick round here of just like saying who you are and why this topic even matters.

I'm Chris Grinstedt. It's so nice to see you, man. So good to see your faces. And thank you so much for, you know, to all of us for answering the call to be here and to show up on this podcast. What has me here is exploration of my own masculinity. I think it's a part of myself that I've overlooked for too long. And so I'm excited to explore what it means in the company of you men, you fellow kings.

Yeah, moi cien. And I feel like there's so many conflicting messages and confusion about masculinity. Is it all toxic? Is it better to just not be masculine? And a lot of it is exploring my own journey with it and. What does healthy masculinity look like, and how does embodying that actually help heal the world?

Dr. Freddie Sanders here. Happy to be with you all here. Super exciting. You know, when I look at the landscape of, you know, what we're going to be talking about here, The first thing that comes up for me is like, I'm here to disrupt the matrix, right? You know, and just to kind of piggyback off of what Wes just dropped in, you know, with all the conflicting messaging that we're— that we get and that we have gotten since we were children about what it is to be a male, what it is to be a man, you know, are we man enough? And, you know, just all of these made-up constructs. Like, I'm here to explore, examine a lot of it, and really disrupt a lot of, you know, what we've been indoctrinated with. And, you know, maybe part of it is like ushering in a— or what I feel is— could already be emerging is like a new— A newer healthier, more holistic version of masculinity that, you know, that feels more aligned than what we see in, like, the media. So I'll land my plane there for now. Happy to be here.

Thanks, brother. And thanks, everybody, for sharing in that way. And what I really appreciate what you just put in, Freddie, was that, like, masculinity has so many different types of personas right now out in the world. And there's such an interesting flavor that most people believe masculinity is. And the piece that you were saying around disruption, I think that's really like the common thread that we all have here is like we see something else in masculinity and there's something really beautiful in that that we actually get to explore when we get to look at what pure masculinity means without any of the other bullshit.

Yeah, it's also— I also see it as sampling other flavors, right? It's like if we, if we go through life having this idea of what we believe masculinity is, this is a great opportunity. Like you're at the ice cream shop, you can sample some other flavors and see how other people's experience of masculinity is. And then, you know, who's to say if there's one that's the best one? But really, you can find the one that's the healthiest for you and for the people around you and can show up more powerfully in every part of your life as a man. Just by having broadened your experience, you can get a chance to try out some different things.

Yeah, and I think it's also important to highlight when we talk about things like masculinity versus femininity that we sort of presence that masculinity is not monolithic. You know, being a man, being a male, manhood, you know, all of these things, it's not a monolith. Like, it's more of a spectrum. And that's how I've always viewed it. And I think the more room we give for us to explore, just like Chris, you just talked about, like, to explore the different flavors. Like, I love that metaphor because it allows us to explore and expand. Um, you know, and, and demonstrate for other men, oh yeah, it doesn't have to look this one way. And it's okay for you to explore this, this part of yourself or that part of yourself. And it's okay for you to be vulnerable and to, um, you know, to, to, to allow your, your whole self to be seen, whatever that is, and, and creating a safe space and container for that. to be in the space.

Yeah, I think that's all such beautifully said. And the piece that I also have around this before we like really start to discuss like the masculinity stereotypes is that I think it's really important for all of us, but also the world to hear this, is that masculinity, it does not conform to just a certain gender. These are energies that we all have inside of us, masculine, feminine, et cetera. And we get to choose to embody it. And the unfortunate part is that most people just have a terrible relationship to what masculinity means, because most people are trying to either put it into overdrive or shove it into a closet. And then we don't really get to get that energy out into the world. So with that being said, like, now we get to actually deconstruct it. So, you know, since you guys are all like, chopping at the bit to, like, speak up on this. Like, what is your relationship to masculinity beyond just, like, the generic social stereotypes that are out in the world?

Yeah, I can speak to my experience with it growing up, which was my mom actually, if anything, exhibited a lot more of those masculine traits than my dad. And that was really interesting for me, of like, uh, my dad's super chill, super zen. My mom is super intense, super fiery, um, really active and very action-oriented. And so I grew up with a kind of confused view of like what healthy masculinity looks like. I I was also kind of forced into this kind of feminine caretaker role, given who my mom was. And along with all these kinds of conflicting messages in media of like, oh, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that one asshole, that one fucking jock in the high school movie, like bullying people or whatever the fuck. So like, maybe I just go hard in the other direction and just be a really nice— more like soft guy. And only somewhat recently am I beginning to like really integrate more of that fire, that kind of natural masculinity that I already have, and being able to really embody it in a healthy way versus trying to, as you so well put, Smith, like kick it into overdrive or just throw it into the fucking closet.

Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that in, Wes.

I—

my experience of masculinity is fairly parallel to yours. I think that, um, I've always had much more ready availability and access to what is, is stereotypically or traditionally thought of as like feminine characteristics or qualities, um, kind of that softer version of masculinity. I was always taught for various different reasons growing up that that hard masculine that many of us think about, uh, and it comes to mind when you talk about masculinity, is dangerous, that it's scary, that it's unsafe for the people around me, right? And so I didn't want to be a source of unsafety for people in my life, whoever they may be. And so I always tended to be much more in that soft, gentle space holder of, of a masculine presence, which is much more in line with What, uh, you know, what we kind of call femininity. I would say feminine energy. And a wise man once said, it's all made up, right? So what we call masculinity, what we call femininity, as Smith so eloquently said, it's just energies. These are just different ways of being that as the human race has and human society has evolved over the centuries and the millennia, we say this is what masculinity is. And it's mostly identified with men who identify— mostly identified with people who identify as men, I should say. And this is what femininity is, and this is what the traits that we assign to people who identify as women. So I think there are some basic kind of universal truths to what masculine and feminine is, but I think so much of it is just human storytelling around these different energies. And so that's to kind of get back to Smith's original question of what does masculinity mean to me? I think that's what it is. I think it is A way that we as a species have decided to kind of define what this particular flavor or brand, or as Freddie said, the spectrum of energies that we're going to call those masculine. And this is kind of how they show up. And in many times they do show up powerfully and sometimes negatively in a stereotypical fashion. But this just— it's just all a story. And I think that's one of the myths that I'm hoping that in the course of these conversations that the 4 of us are going to have, we can really kind of help to Break down some of that storytelling and just dive into the reality of what is. It's all simply energetic ways of being that we get to choose.

Yeah, thanks for putting that out, uh, Chris. And I feel really, really called to share my experience through masculinity through that lens that you were just speaking to. Like, honestly, if you would have asked me like 9 months ago around what I thought masculinity was, it was totally different than what I think now. And if you would've asked me 2 years from now, it also would've been very different. Like, the thing that I am starting to realize and am really practicing right now in my life is what is the definition of masculinity to me, not what society is telling me what that is. And stereotypically, like growing up similar to Wes and you, I had like this really just concrete way of like, oh, this is what the masculine is. And I need to either be like super soft Right, to like compensate for it. Or what I need to do is just like grip my teeth and like suck it up anyways, because I'm a dude, I got a penis, like I gotta be this person. And, uh, that is not at all what, uh, it was. One of the really cool things that I got to experience was, um, John Weiland. Uh, he is a master teacher in the masculine and feminine arts, and I really have subscribed. to the way that he speaks around masculinity. And what he taught is the masculine is really just a master of time and space. And that's it. Like, they're just aware, and they know, and they can feel, and they don't always have to do something with it. And I think that's so beautiful because it allows space for, like, the feminine traits to also be there. But really, like, for me and my relationship to it, I just realized there's such beauty in just being aware of what's there, being aware of the doors, and not having to walk through it. But I can choose to if I want to.

I love, love, love, love this conversation. Just a little bit of background. So I did my doctoral dissertation on masculinity. So I really, really love this conversation. Um, and part of the research that I did for my dissertation was, uh, heuristic inquiry. So just, you know, telling my story and, and, and giving my, you know, sharing my story about my journey along that spectrum of masculinity. Um, so the term that I have used and that I've continued to use regarding this is what I call performative masculinity. And when I think about my journey, a lot of it has been performative because much like, you know, all of you have shared, many of you have shared, my mother actually shaped a lot of my views or my earlier views. around masculinity from the standpoint of, like, you know, she— my mother, even though my mother and I are very close in age, you know, she had me when she was 17, she's very old school. And so she had very, you know, traditional views about what it is to be a man. And she, you know, as my mother, you know, And being a young Black girl in America raising a Black boy in America, you know, she wanted to make sure that I was safe, you know, and that I was equipped to navigate the world and survive. And so, there were certain aspects, specifically, like, around aggression, that she sort of projected onto me.

Mm-hmm.

At a very young age, like, I remember when I was, uh, I think I was 5 or 6 years old, she, she wanted me to play sports. I never expressed explicitly— I don't recall ever explicitly expressing interest in playing sports, but she wanted me to play sports so that I could learn to be aggressive. So I played like a season of T-ball, then I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. So then when I was 7, She put me into karate. So I did like a couple of months of karate, got up to like a second-degree yellow belt, and I was like, I don't wanna do that anymore either.

I'm sorry, I just have to add in, the funniest sport to make your child aggressive is T-ball.

Right.

How do I turn my kid into a killer?

Right.

That's so perfect.

Yeah. But yeah, so— and I remember, I can recall her saying to someone else, not to me explicitly, but I remember her saying to someone else that the reason why she wanted me to be in karate and to, you know, play sports was so that I could learn how to be more aggressive. And just that whole energy, you know, we've been talking a lot about energy, like—

Yeah.

That wasn't me. I knew even at that young age that being aggressive was not something that resonated with me. It was not something that aligned with me. So I spent, you know, a portion of my life, you know, trying to sort of navigate, okay, how do I exhibit some type of aggression where it's still feels aligned with me, but I'm still pleasing my mother. And so that she doesn't get mad at me and, and, you know, whatever. Um, so when I think about, you know, the landscape of, you know, especially in like my earlier years around masculinity, it, it's, it's been that. It's been sort of like the— for me, it's been sort of like a rebellion against all things aggression and, and aggressive. And that's when, you know, even like I said, even at an early age, I really felt like I just had this knowing, this inner knowing that I get to define what masculinity means for me. And that's been my journey ever since.

I can't help but notice, Doc, thanks for sharing that. And I can't help but notice that it's so true that We've been talking about the mythology and the storytelling around masculinity, and so much of it is carried by the women in our society, right? Yes, of course, the men model it, you know, whatever brand or whatever flavor of masculinity they think is, is their expression, they model it for the world to see. But so much of the storytelling and the shaping, as we've heard from all of our sharers, comes from our mothers, right? Not just from our fathers. Isn't that wild?

Yeah. And I think that's such an important thing, right? Like to talk about inside of this conversation, like, you know, we're 4 dudes coming in. And the thing that, like, I think happens sometimes in these types of spaces, like, oh, women are not allowed, like, this is just a dude's conversation. Like, no, the invitation is like, we want everybody to listen in on this so that we can all heal together. We can all choose together. We can all empower each other together. I think that's like such a, like, a beautiful concept because a lot of times, like, what happens is there becomes myths that either get passed down to us, to everybody's point here, whether it's from mothers, fathers, et cetera, to also like ourselves. Like sometimes we just make up shit. Like I know I make up shit and sometimes they are true. And for me, in my experience, a lot of times they're not. And like around this idea of masculinity, one of the things and one of the biggest myths that I've experienced from, and that I've learned from my mother, father, but a lot of authority figures. Funny enough, like, I actually did karate growing up, so, uh, you know, I thought it was pretty badass. But again, it's not for everybody. It's cool, it's cool. But, uh, with that, like, I had a lot of authority figures growing up, and it made me think, like, for the longest time, 22 years of my life, my view on masculinity was the same. Like, masculinity always meant Dominance. Always. It was a way to control others, win over emotions. It was a way to control bodies, whether it was myself or somebody else's. And what I haven't necessarily been told directly, but I think has come to the surface, as, like, the experiences came along is that support makes me soft. Crying is a failure. Gentleness is wrong. And therefore, everything else that involves any sort of real authentic emotion is a no-go because I'm a man. And I think that for me, like, has been one of the most terrible, hurtful truths that I've, like, I've allowed to live inside myself. And I think there's so many other things around this, like, idea of masculinity. There's so many myths. So I'm curious from you guys, like, what other myths do you guys have? Or does that one also resonate with you? Like, what comes up when you guys think about this idea of myths with masculinity?

Yeah, along those lines, thinking of that energy of domination And it's funny, yeah, I've like— that's something I've been working on a little bit of like, how do I really channel my aggression in like a meaningful, like non-destructive way? Because to me, like, that is a very real part of masculinity, like that warrior divine archetype of like— I need to know, like, when shit goes down that I can defend myself, that I can defend the people I care about. And yeah, it's so hard to kind of balance that, the extremes of, like, try to dominate every situation versus, like, just not at all and just leaning back. And I've found that for me, like, sports, like playing basketball, playing volleyball, like That has really been like a really good outlet for me to channel that aggression in a healthy way. Sometimes I scream into the ocean and hit things. Like, that feels like a really necessary release for me.

Yeah.

Um, when I think about, you know, the myths around masculinity, um, what What comes up for me is this idea that masculinity is sort of like, like if I get to the root of it, it's a rejection of anything that is perceived as feminine. So, so take, let's take, you know, intimacy, for example, or, and when I say intimacy, I'm speaking, you know, more like vulnerability. Like our ability to be seen or our sense of visibility or our sense of being able to express our emotions. Like we hear all the time, you know, like here's a myth that women are more emotional than men.

No.

No, it's that women are allowed to be more emotionally expressive than men. So it, it, so it, it, the perception is that women are more emotional is because they're, they're given the space and the room to express their emotions more so than men are. We as men are taught and conditioned and indoctrinated to suppress, oppress our emotions. You know, we, we, we can't, you know, somebody said it earlier, we, we're not— Men don't cry. Men don't do that. Men don't, you know, can't, you know, show— you can't show affection to another man or else you're gay, you know, or you're bad or you're wrong. And it's just like, who made all that shit up? You know what I'm saying? Like, so it's like this rejection of Of all things feminine. And it's like, you know, when I think of it being more like a spectrum, I was like, you know, I get to embrace— I get to embrace, you know, intimacy. Like, to me, it makes me, in my assertion, more of a man to be able to express my emotions fully and to be able to share— To be able to share my love and affection with another man the way I— the way we both agree to do so.

Yeah, dude, like, that fucking point, especially, like, around the crying thing, I think— so, fast-forwarding, like, to now, yes, my view with masculinity is very different than what it was, what I just described. But 5 years before this point, I hated crying. I think I probably cried, like, in my preteen to adult life, like, maybe 5 or 6 times. And it wasn't until I gave myself permission to feel those feelings that I was like, oh wait, holy fuck, like, this is necessary. And like, yeah, it doesn't have to mean anything. Like, whether you're same-gender loving or not, like— That's actually besides the point. What I know, like, I have a feminine partner and she is amazing. I love her so dearly. And one of the things that I appreciate about her is that, like, if I'm crying, she actually looks at that and thinks, oh wow, my man's showing up, and actually tells me that. She tells me that. And admittedly, like, we just actually had a conversation this, uh, this past weekend about it. And she's like, you know what, I actually just kind of find you really attractive when I get to like actually hold you for a change. There's actually a lot of gold in that. And I feel like that's why it's so important to debunk these myths because like, if we don't actually take a look at it and realize why we're making it wrong, we're just gonna keep ending up going in the same cycles again too. Chris, I know you wanted to jump in here too.

Yeah, thanks, Schmidt. I, um, kind of building on so much of what's been shared, but I think there is so much mythology about the solitary, the lone wolf man, right? And how men— it's so hard, I think, in the stereotypical or the patriarchal expression of masculinity for men to connect with each other. I mean, that's what I love about the 4 of us, you 3 men. We've had a chance to spend time together in various different contexts, and I love each of you so deeply from my heart. And it's so rare. Just hit my microphone. It's so rare to, to have to find that, to find men who are willing and open to have that level and depth of connection. And yet, because it's the comp— it's the, the domination thing, right? You're out there competing. Most men, when you walk in the room, you're taught to look around and see who's a threat and who's not a threat, right? And if someone's a threat, what are you going to do about it to make sure that they're not a threat? Like that they can't get one over on you, that they can't win, that you're the top dog, to always be the alpha, like that sort of you know, hyper-aggressive dominant mindset shows up in so many different contexts in so many different ways. And it really erodes, it blocks connection. So back to the vulnerability and intimacy, Doc, that you were talking about. There's no way that you can connect with any human regardless masculine, feminine, unless both parties are willing to be open and vulnerable and authentic. And as men, we're taught not to do that, especially with each other, because that dude might be a threat to me and come and take my spot. So, I'm just— that's one big myth around masculinity that I see changing in society, and I don't think it can come soon enough.

Yeah.

So, I love the flavor of this conversation. Like, what I'm getting and picking up from everything that we all said, like, there's myths around being sensitive, there's myths around being dominant, there's myths about taking up space, there's myths about Having to always be the one. And essentially, like, really what we're getting to here is like, it doesn't have to be that way. It's actually really fucking draining. I'm sure anybody on this call, regardless if you're man, woman, anywhere, right, on the loving soul spectrum, you can resonate with— if you always have to be on, think about what that does to you. One of my favorite quotes that, uh, Dr. Freddy is, uh, allowed me to share, I'll say that, is if you just constantly keep grinding, you'll just end up as a pile of fucking dust. Right? So there's, there's actually magic in looking at it a different way.

Yeah. And it's impossible to be in performance and to be authentic. Right? And so if men are always in this place of, as you say, Doc, in your dissertation, performative masculinity, playing the role that everyone, whether it's your mother or society or yourself or whomever, says this is how you need to be in order to be a man, and you're performing in that, you never get to show up. You never get to actually be yourself and authentic and out there in the world. And how, as you were saying, Smith, how draining, how freaking limiting is that? What a shell of a life.

Yeah, I found myself being really moved, Smith, when you said That your partner mentioned, like, oh, it's actually really attractive when I get to hold you. And I feel like there's— for so much of my life, I've always believed I've had to be the one holding. Like, I don't get to be held. And there's this kind of fear of, like, if I'm no longer that strong masculine presence doing the holding at all times. Will they still actually love me for who I am? Will they love me during my weaker, more vulnerable points that humans just fucking have? Um, and yeah, it's, it's really fucking exhausting to feel like I have to be that guy all the time.

Man, I, again, I'm loving the, the, the flavor of this, this conversation so much and I feel at this point in the conversation, we've talked a lot about women and mothers and their role in shaping the masculine conversation. I gotta put in a plug for my dad, though, because when I look back historically at my relationship with my dad, 'cause my parents divorced when I was 6. And, um, and but I would still see my dad. My dad was very present in my life, and I saw him on weekends. Um, but when I, when I look at the landscape of my relationship with my father, like, I, I got more of the, the traditional masculine construct from my mother than I did my father. Because when it came to my father, he just allowed me to be... Who the fuck I am, you know? And and and you know he and I just had had this we we have always had this amazing relationship, and we had this beautiful conversation a few years ago. I think I was still doing my dissertation or doing my research, and I had a conversation with him about the work that I was doing around masculinity. And it turned into one of the most beautiful conversations I've ever had with another human being. And we just— we just, you know, he was telling me stories about his relationship with his father and how his father, my grandfather, withheld physical affection from him. Like, he just— that just wasn't something that he did. And because he, my dad, always, like, yearned for that. When I came along, he said, you know, I wanted to make sure that you knew that it was okay for you to show me affection. So to this day, I'm— in 2 months, I'm gonna be 45 years old. To this day, I still kiss my father on the lips because he and I have that kind of relationship. And we have— and we— like, he always made me feel— safe to express my affection for him and my love for him in ways that felt aligned with me. And I— man, like, I can't tell you, like, and it has, you know, it has shaped me into the type of man who embraces vulnerability, who embraces intimacy. Um, with, with other men. And I'm, and I'm not saying that— and, and I, I am a same-gender loving man, but it, but it's not sexual. It's not sexual at all, you know? Like, I can have relationships with— like, I have tons of, of straight friends who, like, we call each other pet names and we, like, like, we, we just, we have fun. We have fun together. And it's not all that— it's not serious. It's not like— You know, like, they're not intimidated and, you know, all that, threatened, like, they don't feel threatened at all because they know me. They know me as a human, you know? And so, I can attribute a lot of that to the space that my dad allowed me to have as far as being able to, you know, express, you know, vulnerability and express, you know, intimacy and affection. with another man. Like, he demonstrated that for me.

Thanks so much for sharing, Doc. That's, um, that hits me really, really deep to my core, specifically because of how different, how opposite from you my experience was with my father, right? Like, my—

I—

what you, what you explained that your father said about your grandfather is pretty similar to my experience that I had with my father. When I say my father was my stepfather who raised me, he and my mom married when I was very young, 3 or 4 years old. And you want to talk about, you know, the walking stereotype of what society says masculinity is, was him. Like, there was—

there was—

worked hard, you know, very little, very little, not very emotive in terms of his affection or his expression. I think he wanted to. And the closest he could come to, to showing expression, especially to us, we had— there's 3 boys. I'm the middle of 3 boys. Growing up was playing pranks on us. He'd hide in the closet, we'd go to get dressed, and a hand would come out and scare the crap out of us. And so, he thought that was the funniest thing, but it was his way of connecting or showing that he was thinking about us or something. I don't know. I still have trauma around that a little bit. But yeah, it really shaped me. And it sounds like my experience as a father. I have 2 children, a boy and a girl. Who are in their early 20s now. Um, I had a very similar experience as your father, as he shared with you. Like, I definitely wanted to be open and available and emotional and to tell my kids how, how much I love them and to hug them and to really be everything with them in that, um, accessible, especially emotionally accessible space. Um, so yeah, thank you for sharing your story because it really It really hit me deep in terms of, you know, I love that you had that experience with your dad. And I, and I hope that I had— I was able to give my children the same experience that you had with your father.

Yeah, this is— this really touched my soul. The family topic and masculinity wrapped into it, like, really, really hits a different spot in my heart. I remember when I was, um, it was just actually about almost a year ago. Um, I was on a retreat, actually Wes and Freddie were in there, and we were doing like some lunchtime conversations. And I remembered, uh, just really feeling, feeling the power of what my parents did and did not give me. And I actually like really got to face like all of it together.

Yeah.

And I wept like a like a baby. Like, I would not stop crying. And, uh, it was a really beautiful moment because, uh, Dr. Freddy initiated it, but he just came over and he just like held me in that moment. And like the, like the visions and the, the power that really came from it, it allowed me to kind of see all of it. And what I distinctly remembered feeling in that moment was everything that my parents did not give me was actually okay. They were just doing their best. And they were practicing masculinity in that moment. They were just trying to lead for the— lead, truly lead from the front for me and for my sisters. And with that being said too, like, yes, they have messed up, and I mess up all the fucking time. And I realized, like, really feeling the, the power of the masculine energy through even parenthood, like how beautiful it is that my parents chose to balance it. And the most recent feeling of that that I just got a couple months ago, there was a family, uh, family member, my aunt and my uncle, uh, came to my parents' house and I was, uh, eating dinner with them.

Mm-hmm.

And my dad decided to be really bold and say something that he knew that would, like, cause some feelings and emotions to come up. But he knew that it was for him, like, the right thing to do. And exactly like he must have predicted, it went totally south. And my uncle, like, went into, like, my sister's bedroom, like, closed the door. He was just like, I gotta— like, I'm gonna go sleep early tonight. Like, all this stuff. And, you know, I'm a, you know, like all of us, I'm a coach. So I was just like sitting back and watching this, like, what the fuck is gonna happen now? And I was witnessing my dad like actually go through a bunch of different emotions. Like part of him was like, I'm really glad I said that. And then another part of him was, why did he react that way? And then the other part, which I really admired, was— Oh, I actually get to clean up my mess. And he knocked on the bedroom door, and my uncle opened up the door, and my dad was like, I'm really sorry. Like, I did not mean to cause that reaction, and I did not mean to cause that impact for you. And he literally just owned his stuff completely, wholeheartedly, really beautifully, in my personal opinion. And It got me to like see my dad in such a different way. For me growing up, it was a little bit more traditional. It's the best way that I could say it. And the thing that I love about my dad is that with the masculine energy that I choose to define by, like he really takes a look at himself. And over the course of the year, he's been chipping away. He hasn't called it inner work. He hasn't called it coaching. He hasn't called it anything. He just calls it. Being him. And he's shown me like what it means to live by someone else's own path, someone else's own journey. And I think that's such a beautiful gift that my dad was able to give me, is just the allowance for, hey, this is my own journey. I get to choose what I want to make of it. So yeah, really thanks for sharing all that, guys, and holding space also for me and my share.

Yeah. And, and I, I have to, I have to give my, my perspective and my angle on that moment at the retreat last year. Um, because yeah, we were, we were around the table having our, uh, meal discussion and, and I just, I, I looked over and this was the first, keep in mind, this is the first time that Smith and I have met in person. Um, and I looked over and I just saw him weeping. And like, every— everything in me, like my intuition, my instinct, everything said, go pour love into this brother. And so I just quietly— Someone, someone else was, was speaking, and I just quietly got up out of my seat and I walked over to him and I just walked behind him and I just wrapped my arms Around him. And the way— Smith, the way that you leaned back into me, I was just like, wow. Like, that was a beautiful moment. And so, I've shared this with you already, 'cause we've talked about this already at length, but thank you for allowing me to love you.

Thank you.

In that way. You know, it was a very, very beautiful moment that I'll never forget as long as I live.

Dude, thank you for, for actually loving me. And it, you know, part of this thing around like the masculine energy, like really comes up for me with that interaction as well too. I could have very well just been like, nah, I'm good. Like, fuck you, bro. Like, I got my shit. Like, leave me alone. And keep in mind, like, I was one of the leaders in this experience. I was like, oh, okay, leaders can't cry. Leaders got to have their shit together. But like, because I leaned into something different, like I actually got to have that deeper relationship with Freddie. And that's kind of the, like, the interesting thing, right? Like when we get to actually land on something that we really see with this masculine energy, we get to practice it everywhere and it gets to change our life in different ways. So I'm really curious from you guys, like, what are some different ways that you believe, like, practicing healthy masculinity looks like for you? And what's the impact of actually practicing? A different version of masculinity besides just like the dominance, just besides like the, I have it all together, all those things that we were saying before.

I'll go. Yeah, I can't, I can't help but reflect on the power of this conversation that we're having right now and the shares that were just had. The purpose of this, of this podcast and these discussions is to talk about and to position masculinity as medicine, right? And how healing that moment was that I just heard described between Smith and Dr. Freddie and how truly that masculine medicine was At work in that moment, I can't help but notice that. To your question, Smit, around how does masculinity show up powerfully when it's in its healthy form, I think a lot of it— well, some of it we've touched on already. It's about being authentic. It's the opposite of the performance that Dr. Freddy talked about a little bit earlier, but it's really just showing up authentically, truly who we are, how we are. However that might be, and just trusting not only that the people around us will accept it, because maybe they will, maybe they won't, but really trusting that no matter what happens, no matter what reaction we get, that we've got us, right? And that, I think, is the strength and the power of masculinity, is to choose the non-performative way of being, to choose authentically showing up is so powerful. And not only is it powerful for us as men individually, but the ripple effect. Right? The people around us, our partners, whatever gender they may be, the people closest to us, our families, our friends, people just observing that we may never know are there. But when they see it happening, we can kind of sprinkle a little bit of that medicine dust all over the world around us when we show up in that powerful, authentic way.

Dude, I just got fucking pumped from that shit.

Let's go.

That's beautiful. Mic drop.

Let's go.

Yeah, I think what I'm really hearing in that is moving from a place of love, not from performance, not from the mask, but just showing the fuck up. Um, shout out to our friend Austin, showing the fuck up and finding out. Um, and yeah, I feel really Move to share how— so Chris and I graduated from this year-long coaching program. Shout out to Accomplishment Coaching. And at that graduation where we also met Smith for the first time because he came to support our graduation weekend, our cohort was 3 dudes and the leadership team, the guest clients were all women. And I wasn't really prepared for, like, at the ceremony, so many of the women being like, I came into this year, like, kind of hating men. I was, like, so traumatized from my past experiences with them. I was just, like, so over it. I just hated masculinity. I hated men. And but from being in this experience with you all and seeing your growth and seeing your hearts and authenticity come through. Like, I've healed so much just from being with you and observing you. And yeah, I had no idea we were even having that impact just by being exactly who we were. And I think that was maybe like the first taste I had of like, oh, like there's, there's something in this, like in this exploring my own masculinity and how that can actually help other people heal, because there's so fucking wounds out there for men and women. And really excited to be doing this kind of work with y'all.

Yeah.

Thank you, Wes. Um, to, to answer your question, Smit, uh, what, what practices, um, can we, uh, can we integrate to expand, expand or explore our, our masculine spectrum? Um, for me, I'd say it's, it's two-pronged. One is the, the work that I've done in becoming a coach, uh, just the, the, the human development, the personal development, the spiritual development process. This naturally had me explore my whole being and explore parts of myself that I might not otherwise have explored had I not Gone into coaching, so so that's that's one part is you know that in becoming a you know master certified coach, I also got to do my own work. And so I think it's important that that men do their work. You know whatever that looks like, and I'm not surely not advocating that everybody go out and become a coach, but. If you want to, that's fine. That's great. We need more coaches. But just position yourself to do the work, and that sort of segues me into the second prong, which is the community. You know, the community aspect, like surrounding myself with you know like-minded, like-hearted, you know like-spirited men that I feel safe enough to. Be my whole self with, and that I feel safe enough to, you know, share, you know, the most intimate parts of myself and to share my secrets with and to pour love into and have them pour into me. You know, the community and the communal aspect of the work like that, I think that's all part of the work is finding spaces and finding communities of other men where, where the work is being done. And, uh, and, you know, like, I think, uh, Smit and I, we were having a conversation recently and, and, uh, you know, I shared like, yes, hold me accountable. Like, I want to be held accountable and I want to be held responsible. I don't want to be held hostage.

Right.

So having a space where, yes, I have other men holding me accountable and responsible, but they're not holding my entire being hostage, that's a beautiful space to be in.

Yeah. Thanks, Freddie. For me, what healthy masculinity looks like is emotional range and choice with it. I want to be able to say, I feel fucking love you and feel it to my core. And also when I tell you to fuck off, like, I want to feel all of those emotions. Like, I, I actually believe that there is no light without darkness. Like, with the— if you don't have darkness, you can't actually identify something as light. And that's actually like the greater spectrum of what I believe like masculinity can really provide. And I also believe that masculinity doesn't need to control. It actually just protects what is. It's allowing to be soft without collapsing and powerful without being overbearing as well too. And I think it's super important to also iterate that like everybody has masculine energy. I think we said that a couple of times, but including our, our non-male folks and, uh, male viewers on this. There is such a thing called wounded masculine. There is such a thing of hurt or disembodied feminine as well too. And we get to actually take a look at that and actually heal all of those parts. And I know we're coming up to time on this episode, and the beauty is we get to keep talking about this. We'll be here. This is where kings unite. And I also think it's really beautiful that we get to actually give you all a space to listen in and see what's true for you. So my invitation is truly see what's true for you from this conversation. And my fellow kings on this call, I would love to invite you guys to invite our viewers to look at something in their own life, something that may actually cause a shift for them to deepen their relationship with masculinity. Or maybe even heal it?

For me, the invitation to everyone is to identify what it is you're afraid of. I think a lot of times we, we go through life knowing that we're afraid and not really understanding what it is that we're afraid of. But if we can get really clear on the source of what it is that as a man is causing me to react the way that I am from a place of fear and choose powerfully and courageously to not be controlled by that fear, but instead to choose what it is, how it is that I want to show up. I love how you said, um, you know, softness but holding that container powerfully. And I think making that choice, I would love to invite myself, the rest of the kings on this call, and then any one of our listeners to just be mindful of that.

Yeah, my, uh, my invitation Would be to explore and examine dignity. And when I say dignity, I'm speaking about my sense of worthiness, your sense of worthiness, because a lot of these, you know, and to sort of piggyback off of what Chris shared and put into the space around fear. is this fear of insufficiency, this fear of not being enough, not being man enough, right? Um, that's one of the things that, uh, as I was starting my research, um, the first— the very first book I read was Justin Baldoni's Man Enough. And that was like the first, uh, you know, like, it just— it just totally It gave me everything that I needed to kind of kick off my research. But I would say definitely, you know, take some time and explore areas in your life where you feel like you're not enough. You know, am I man enough? Am I smart enough? Am I sexy enough? Am I, you know, whatever it is that's grounded in enoughness, explore. where you feel like there is insufficiency? Yeah.

Well, y'all can't see it, but Dr. Freddie is definitely sexy enough. But, uh, I just want to leave that out there. Um, for me, uh, my invitation is to actually just practice your emotion. Like, I think one of the hardest things for, for men in general is to actually feel comfortable in their rage. And I invite everybody to actually practice their anger on purpose. Like, get fucking angry. Maybe don't do it next to your partner or a close friend or a close family member. Like, it's probably gonna have an impact, but do it alone. Like, if you're angry about something, take a legal pad, smash the shit out of it, and actually feel those emotions. Don't let any emotions get you by.

That legal pad thing was so specific. I have to assume it's something you've done recently.

I love my legal pads, baby.

Yeah, for me it's like smacking the shit out of my mattress or something.

Or—

but yeah, my invitation is to just open up to some loved ones about where you're at, what you're going through, what you may be struggling with, and just trust them to hold you. So much healing, so much empowerment can come from that. And yeah, it makes me really sad that like so many men out there feel so lonely that they can't be held, and really excited to see the kind of impact that can have.

Well said, guys. This work matters. Thank you all for being here, kings. Thanks for uniting here. Thanks to all of our viewers for tuning in. Please continue to take a look at what this work can do for you in your life. And as we close this chapter, our first episode of Wank Kings Unite, remember masculinity as medicine is a journey and not a destination. Continue to explore what it means to be self-initiated for you. Deeply present and operating from a system of love. Thank you for joining Freddie, Wes, Chris, and also myself. We invite you to carry the essence of divine masculinity everywhere you go, and we'll be back. See you all soon.

Bye.