Why Being Emotionally Attuned Matters for Men | S01 E04

Welcome back to When Kings Unite, the podcast where we explore masculinity as medicine. I'm Wes, and today I'm hosting a conversation about something that's really misunderstood but absolutely vital for men. We're talking about emotional intelligence. How many times have we as men been told, man up, don't cry, or otherwise been taught that showing any kind of emotion other than anger is weak and inappropriate? Maybe we can be affectionate, but we have to say no homo in case people think we're too soft. So we're challenging that today. We're going to explore what actually emotionally attuned masculinity looks like, how emotional intelligence empowers us to be stronger masculine forces out in the world, and why embracing our full emotional spectrum is actually a superpower, rather than a weakness. So let's kick off the conversation. What does emotionally attuned masculinity mean to you?

Diving right into the deep, huh, Wes?

Yeah, getting right into it. Hmm.

Hmm. I guess I can share. I mean, this— I think this will be— I'm just kind of working through it. Y'all can help me out with this. But when I think about emotional attunement and emotional intelligence, The first thing that comes up for me is, like, the reminder that I am a whole person. You know, it's like something that I've been sort of— it's something that's sort of been like a mantra for me in the last few days even, is that I am not a machine. I am not a machine. So why am I trying to compete with one. You know, like I have, I have human emotions, I have human feelings. I am not those feelings. I am not those emotions. So it's like I get to unattach my identity from what I am aware of and what I'm present to regarding my feelings and emotions. And I also get to be aware Of those feelings and emotions. So I think a lot of it is— I think, I think the attunement begins with awareness first. I get to check in with myself and be mindfully aware of what I am feeling and what I am experiencing, uh, and sit with it and allow it to be there, you know. And, and as men, we are not always— allowed that or given the room or the space to even sit presently with our emotions and feelings and the physical sensations in our bodies. Like, in a lot of ways, we're taught and conditioned to betray our own bodies, you know, and to betray our, our own hearts, you know. Like, we're, we're taught that, you know, feelings don't matter, or feelings don't get shit done, or you got to suck it up. You know, like all the things that you mentioned before, Wes. Um, and it's like, who, who decided that? Who made up those rules for us and decided that that's what it means to be a man? Like, where did that come from? And I know we're gonna probably dig more deeply into that in this conversation, but— Yeah, that's what initially comes up for me.

Freddie, I really appreciate what you're bringing in there. And one of the things that really comes up for me is just the word itself, attunement. One of the things I love about you, Freddie, is what a word nerd you are and how you look at words and kind of break them down into their core, their essence, and like just look at them.

Language.

Language is so powerful, right? It's important. Attunement. The word tune is in it, right? We tune into things. I'm going to kick it old school, right? So I'm way older than most of you on the podcast here, but remember back in the days when you had to turn the knob on the radio?

Mm-hmm.

And if you weren't on the right frequency, all you heard was static, right? And when you get it to just the right spot, well, then you're tuned into the right— you're attuned to the right frequency and you can listen to whatever station it is that you want to listen to and the music comes in clearly. And so I think a lot of what you were saying in your share, Freddie, is, is as men, we're not taught to turn the dial, right? To turn the knob. And many men live their entire lives stuck just listening to static when they're trying to tune into their emotional selves. Or maybe it's just stuck on one station and it's the one they've been told is the right one for them. And it's, it's anger or rage. That's the only acceptable emotion for a man. to experience, and they don't get a chance to play with the entirety of that radio dial, right? And to see all the different forms and flavors and experiences of music that are available to us in the emotional range. So I think I love what you say about awareness. And I also, for me, it's also an act of choice. You choose to be in relation, to acknowledge, to be aware of, and then to be in relation with all of the different facets of your emotional self. It's kind of like you're tuning that radio dial.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I really love already what you, Chris, and Dr. Fredi are putting in. And really, the goal that I got from both of y'all's shares was how emotions and feelings are actually a powerful tool versus something that diminishes us. And I think this idea of being emotionally attuned with our masculinity really means that we're willing to feel everything without losing us in the process. I think it's really about choosing to stay present with my— all of my emotions: anger, fear, joy, desire, without numbing or suppressing them. And I think that is the trickier part to, like, Dr. Freddy's point that he so perfectly articulated. It's that we have been almost quote-unquote taught by society that, well, you can't do this because of this XYZ reason. Like, it's all made-up shit to, like, keep us in this box. And the power of, like, actually finding where we want to be with the dial, I think, is the gold.

Yeah.

in it that I see. And I think if— I'll speak for myself— if I'm willing to soften and allow everybody to see parts of me, yes, it's totally scary, but then they actually get to see all of me. And that's, I think, at the root of what everybody wants, is that they want to feel loved and accepted and honored and seen. And when I am emotionally in tune, I get to see all that in other people, and they also get a chance to see that in me.

Yeah. And that actually brings up something that I'm not sure— I can't remember if we've talked about this in a previous episode yet, but just the use of the word toxic in regards to masculinity and how damaging that can be. Because, you know, it's like we're already not given the room and the space to to express all of ourselves, you know, all of our emotions. But then when we do, much of it is labeled as bad or wrong or toxic. And so that's why, like, in the work that I've done, I've relanguaged it from toxic masculinity to performative masculinity, because to say it's performative, it just says— it doesn't label it as wrong or bad. It just says, Okay, I'm performing right now. Why am I performing? Who am I performing for? I get to be aware of that. And then to Chris's point, I then get to choose, you know, do I still want to be performative? Is the performance even needed or necessary right now? Or do I get to make another choice?

Yeah, for me, that really brings in authenticity as well, Freddie, is like, when you're in that performative state, You can't be authentic. You're not really yourself. You're putting on a play. You're playing the part. You're being what other people think you should, what you think other people think you should be, or what you think that you think you should be. Right. It's not actually being in touch with who you truly are. So authenticity and standing in integrity, it's really hard to do if you don't, as men especially, if we're not in In touch with and in collaboration with our emotional selves.

Yeah, really love what y'all are putting in here, because I think when people hear emotional intelligence or even attunement, there's almost this kind of like outward connotation there of like you can be emotionally intelligent for other people and in your action interactions with other people. But it really starts from within. Like, can you be with your own emotions so that you can show up in an integrous, safe way for others? Which makes me wonder, like, how does embracing your own emotions impact how you move through the world?

Okay, I'll kick this one off here. So I just heard this recently, and I really love it. Masculinity equals being whole. And I love that, like absolutely love it. And the reason that I love it, it's because it invites all parts of me. How it goes for me sometimes, or like when I'm in my shit, which is funny because like over the last two weeks I've just been in my shit, so I'm kind of working through something as I'm talking about it. But What I see for myself in like this is anger, sadness, all of the things that I've mentioned already before, like, need to be welcome. They have to be welcome. They need to have a seat at the table because otherwise what will happen for me is that they'll run the show in the background. They'll start burning the food. They'll start like putting salt where sugar should be. Like, they'll do some crazy shit. But, uh, That, like, capability for me to, like, be completely courageous and show all parts of me is the goal. Because, like, I know when my team is working together, all of my feelings, all of my emotions, all of my lived experiences, I can make the best decisions. The thing that does kick me sometimes is like, oh, well, other people think that I'm weak. And what I'm starting to figure out even more is that it doesn't matter what they think. It really just matters what I think and feel. And why would I need to think and feel less? And that's the power. Like, I get to have more of that. And of course, it's a practice, but I see it. Like, I see that clearly. Yeah.

What I'm gleaning from that, Smith, is, like, the impact of Emotional attunement is reclaiming our humanity. You know, we get to, we get to give ourselves back to ourselves. And, you know, when, when we can move through the world and navigate through the world as whole persons and whole beings, we demonstrate for the, the rest of humanity what, what is possible. It's like, oh, yeah, you're feeling sad, you're feeling angry. Yeah, I feel that too. And I get to allow myself to feel it to whatever degree I need to feel it and sit with it. But yeah, like, that's the essence of humanity, is allowing ourselves to be fully human.

And Freddie, I would add to that, Emotions are such a powerful source, or a powerful source of power. Listen to me, I'm using the same word twice, but it's such an incredible source of power for us as human beings, right? It's, um, it's like this, this well of, of a source, a spring of energy that we can use, that we can tap into to help move us through this world. I can't help but think of the best actors that we've seen on the screen and how they can cry. Like, they can get themselves in so many different emotive states, and they can show it. And for them, it is performative. But the power that comes from that, and how we as an audience get so moved and touched from them pretending to feel a thing, right? And a lot of times, they do it by channeling experiences that they've had in their past to be able to cry or to be able to— whatever it might be. But— There is so much energy that moves and so much power that happens in any of these emotional states— joy or love or happiness or sadness or anger or fear, whatever it might be. There's so much available to us to help fuel our path through this journey of life. Why would we limit it? Why would we just choose just one or such a small, narrow band? of, of emotional states as the one thing that we use for fuel in our tank, in our engine. It seems kind of silly, to be honest, to even go through life in such a limited way. But I think many men do because of the fear, the conditioned fear of not-okayness, not, not, not enoughness, not acceptableness. And sometimes for me, a lot of times I will hold back from And one of the things we were touching on earlier, from even outwardly expressing my emotional state, is because other people might not be comfortable with it, right? If I express whatever it is that I'm feeling, regardless of how intensely I'm feeling it, if I come out with it, other people might not be used to that for me as a man or for me as a person. And, uh, and they might not accept it, and therefore they might not accept me. Things that keeps me, that keeps me making myself small in many of those situations, emotionally speaking. Something I'm working on, I'm focused on and committed to shifting in myself as well.

Yeah.

And you just used language that I think it's important to highlight here. And you said, and how one of the ways that I sort of define emotions, and you said it, is it's energy in motion. It's emotion, right? And so I think it's important when we talk about emotional attunement or emotional intelligence to understand what an emotion actually even is, first and foremost. Like, what are we attuned to? What are we aware of in regards to an emotion? So, um, one of the things that I learned from my mentors— one of my mentors, I have many— And she's a, she's a somatic therapist as well as a coach. And I took one of her, one of her courses, and she taught us, like, there was a whole module specifically around emotions. And there are 3 components of an emotion. There are 3 components. So the first is a physical sensation in the body that happens first. Second, there is an urge or an impulse to act or react. So that's second. And then the third component of an emotion is a thought or narrative or an interpretation. And generally, when we recall our emotions or think about our emotions, we skip over The first 2 components and jump right to the story and jump right to the narrative, jump right to the thought. When we get to stop and check in with our bodies first, what is actually occurring in my body that is signaling to me something is occurring? And it— when I give myself that space in that room to explore, okay, what is it that I'm actually— what are the sensations that I'm feeling in my body?

Mm-hmm.

I might just arrive to the conclusion that, oh, maybe it's not about this thought. Maybe it's not about this narrative or this story or this interpretation that I have made up about what I am experiencing and feeling in my body.

Yeah. Really appreciate you bringing that, 'cause, man, I, I have always been deeply emotional, actually. But I spent most of my life trying to reject all of it. I, as a man, like, we value logic, we value being rational, and that often gets equated with, like, rejecting the emotions or, like, you know, like, as if they're kind of just frivolous things when they're really these real signals. That point to what's happening in our body, that point to what's happening in our intuition. And because of that, I grew up with chronic pain. I was like 6, 7 years old, like constantly, like almost my whole body aching. And I went to all these different doctors. I couldn't— they all had their own theories on what was going on or were like, ah, he's fine. But yeah, it wasn't until I started diving into somatic work, into actually feeling what was going on, that I both had the pain subside more and actually felt connected to who I really was versus who I thought I should be based on what I thought other people wanted from me. And with that, I'm curious, like, I'm— imagine we all have experiences like that, right? Trying to stuff down our emotions like stuffing a beach ball into the ocean. It comes right back up even stronger the deeper you try to push it. So I'm curious if y'all have any stories about your own experiences with trying to, to shut it off and— Naturally, seeing how that goes.

Yeah, I think I have so many. So I, uh, I'm like, all right, which one should I share? But maybe that is like the gold in it. Uh, I think they're like— the intellectual part of me is like, oh yeah, there are so many because I've learned all these different ways of like hiding it, and that's what society tells me. I don't want to feel it, right? But One of the most recent ones that I'm really battling with is trying to figure out how to love other people in their process, but also be in my own by myself. And usually what I'll do is one of two things. I'll just get really incredibly angry, and then I'll just like throw everything all away. Like, you don't think the way that I do.

I'm out.

Bye. The other way that it shows up for me is my childhood wound around it. And it's like, oh, well, I was totally in the wrong. And but it's like ownership with like total not care for myself. It's like, I'm just a shitty person. I'm like almost trying to make someone else feel bad for me versus just like owning it. And In that, like, there's a few relationships actually in my life that I'm like working on practice. Like, what does it mean to like show up with power in these spots and with love? But the thing that like I'm feeling around it is like the frustration. And I notice the times where I don't feel the frustration, it's easier to go back to those 2 things. I'm either gonna try to blow it up or I'm just gonna try to roll over. But if I feel the frustration and I start to move through it, like, okay, what is this telling me? Where does it live in my body? And sometimes I'm like, I get frustrated in the process, right? I'm like, this is so stupid. It doesn't do anything. But it does. Like, it really, really, really does. And the more I'm like sitting with it, I'm starting to see that the frustration is just like, it's my body telling me like, hey, that's, that's a total learned thing. You don't need to do that anymore. You, you're okay right now. Like, you're better than this. You have more tools. You've learned more.

Yeah.

Here's a, here's a few options, but it's a signal to have me see something else.

Yeah, I can totally resonate with that, Smit. I spent a good part of my, my, the decade of my 30s as a professional compartmentalizer. You know, I've shared earlier, it was a previous relationship that, that, um, you know, I was feeling all the feelings in that one, you know, the sadness, frustration, fear, and, uh, none of them It would— I never felt, um, that it was okay for me to let them out, to show them or to share them. So I put them in the little box and I put them in that little shelf way deep down inside, and I closed the door and I locked the door and I swallowed the key. And, you know, all the things. That's, that's what, um, that's what I did for so many years. And when, when the day of reckoning came, because it had been so long and it was a practice that I had been undertaking for so long. Um, and it wasn't pretty, you know, it wasn't pretty. And I— it came out in some not very awesome ways that I'm not proud of in how things went with that relationship. Um, and there's damage there, there's scars there, um, not just with my ex-wife but with my kids too, and how all that happened. And what a beautiful and powerful opportunity for me to learn, right, about the importance of finding ways to not just know and be in touch and recognize what I'm feeling, but also to share it and to get supported when I need to get supported, whether that's in a relationship with my person or relationship with, you know, men, men such as yourself. Um, just really the importance of not keeping it in, but of, you know, sharing, being willing, having the courage to share my emotions and what's going on inside of me with the important people in my life, and trusting that they'll hold me, that they'll catch me, that there won't be judgment there, but that I'll be met with love and acceptance and understanding and If anything, something that Freddie mentioned earlier around intimacy, right? That's— it's something that I think we all want in our lives is to be— is to feel close with the people that are important to us. And I found my experience was that practice of compartmentalization was such a barrier to intimacy, not just in that relationship where it was happening, but in all parts of my life.

Right.

Um, it kept me from showing up whole and complete. So yeah, it's, um, I think it's super important, really important to find a way to be with and to invite others to be with all parts of ourselves, our whole emotional state. Um, the trick is, as I said earlier, like, not everyone is comfortable with that or open to it or wants to go into that space with you. So that's, that's where you get to choose again. Right, in who and when and how. Um, but still, it's just from— I've found that it's critical and important to do it right, to find the right people in the right places, the right times, to be able to be fully emotionally real and sometimes raw and sometimes messy and just trust it'll be okay.

Yeah, I love that you bring the, the intimacy piece in because, you know, I, I'm a firm believer that intimacy begins with self, and it is shared with others. Like, intimacy is my sense of visibility and my sense of vulnerability. And so when, when, when I see myself, when I allow myself to see myself fully, uh, then that— That, that is like the invitation to allow others to see us fully. If there are things that, you know, that I'm trying to hide, you know, then, then that's— then I'm going to show up with that energy, and then people are going to feed off of, you know, feed off of that energy. Um, so have you all heard of HSPs?

You know, is it— Around sensitive people. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. I want to hear you say it though. Yeah. Yes.

So, so I— part, part of my— we'll call it my, my self-concept identity energetic makeup is that I am an HSP. I, I identify as a highly sensitive person. And there's a really amazing, amazing film on Prime Video called Sensitive: The Untold Story, and it's all about HSPs and highly sensitive people. And so there is, there's a segment of humanity, I think in the film they say it's about 20% of the human population, That fall on the spectrum of being highly sensitive, a highly sensitive person. And it simply just means like it's not a good or bad thing, a right or wrong thing. It's we feel it like this. The you know, I don't know if it's like a sensory thing or a nervous system thing, but we feel deeply, like we feel more deeply. than 80% of the rest of the population. So, so meaning that we, you know, and again, it's not, it's not monolithic. It's, it's a, it's a spectrum. Um, but we, we, we feel things, things on a deeper level, like we're sensitive to certain things at varying Depths and levels. And it's not about, you know, it's not— we're not sensitive about every single thing, but there might be certain things that activate us emotionally more so than other people. And it doesn't make it good or bad, right or wrong. It is. It is what it is. And so, you know, like I spoke, I think in the previous episode about Um, about the, uh, the, the Jane Fonda interview, right, that sort of ignited my interest in men's work. And she talked about the, the bifurcation, the head-to-heart bifurcation, or the disconnection head to heart. When I, when I experienced the, the wreck after I graduated coaching school, and I, you know, that was one of my rock bottom moments. What I recognized from that experience is that I was bifurcated and disconnected head to heart. And so that event was absolutely necessary for me to wake up and see and recognize, oh, I like— I've declared that I'm interested in doing this work with men who are disconnected head to heart. And here the universe has presented me with this beautiful, you know, this, this beautiful experience of, you know, revealing, like, this revelation that, oh yeah, okay, so you want to do work with men who are disconnected head to heart.

Let—

we're going to show you now Where you're disconnected head to heart, right? So, uh, and, and, and again, as an HSP and knowing, knowing now that, you know, I am a highly sensitive person, like, I, I, I can see and, and recognize, oh wow, yeah, these are areas that I get to look at and, and be with and sit with.

Uh-huh.

Um, on a deeper level, and I get to explore, okay, where, where am I disconnected? Where can I, where can I attune, you know, to, to borrow your metaphor, where can I attune myself more, more deeply? And, and yeah, like it, it's, it's a, it's a beautiful practice to, to, you know, to kind of, to kind of sit with and, and be with. And Wes, you used a word earlier that, that's resonating with me, and that's intuition. You know, like, I've learned that my highly sensitive person-ness, that's my superpower. It's not something that's wrong or bad or something I need to, you know, turn down or tune down. That is my superpower. That is what connects me with— my intuition and allowing my spirit guides to actually navigate me and guide me through the world in a way that feels most aligned and authentic to me as a whole person.

I love that, Freddie. And, um, something that really comes up for me at this moment in the conversation is the difference between, um, the mythology of masculinity And what we've all been describing, right? We've all 4 of us have been doing a lot of work on ourselves. We've been actively involved in men's work and in self-improvement, self-development, and in supporting others as coaches for their own personal development as well. And it's— I can't help but just think about the stories and the mythology that's out there around what it is to be a man. The first place you have to start is inside yourself. And then you said it so beautifully, Freddie, in the conversation around intimacy. That's the hardest part. For me, it was the scariest part.

Uh-huh.

I was always able to, um, by my nature and probably by my nurture, I was always able to sense and intuit and be in touch with the emotional, uh, um, energy in, in a room, in a space, and I could, uh, uh, understand how to navigate it. That's part of the superpower that I was have been blessed with and that I've nurtured throughout my life. But to be able to turn that around and to understand and sense and feel my own emotional state and to be okay with it and not have it be overtaken or overshadowed by the stories about this is what a man is, and you got to, you know, drive this sort of car and you got to have that sort of job and have the bank account and the hot chick on the arm and like all the things. but just to actually be real with myself, that was way harder, way scarier for me than, than being, being in tune with other people's emotional states and, and figuring out how to navigate, you know, that particular environment. So I think that— and I don't think I'm alone in that. I think a lot of men, even Even if they recognize that they have this ability of emotional intelligence, being able to get quiet and tune in deeply, that's where the real work starts.

Yeah. And I think to your point too, Chris, like, from my own experience, I think I got into coaching for a lot of great reasons, but there was a part of me that's like, okay, if I maybe learn how to fix somebody else, then I'll feel good about myself. And that's gotten me into trouble in different ways where it's like I'm always constantly seeking for approval, and then it makes me lash out in different ways where I actually— my personal beliefs are like the most valuable part about this work is when we get to look at ourselves. And I have a rule, it's like if my coach does not have a coach or a therapist or something that they're working on, I won't work with them. Like, I know how much more powerful it is for me when I'm doing my work and how I show up for people. And like Even if people aren't like, they don't have clients, not everybody on this, you know, that's gonna listen to this is gonna be having clients, but we do all have people in our lives and they're just as important in my eyes. So thanks for saying that. And, um, yeah, Freddie, your piece around HSPs really hit for me. I think, um, you mentioned that briefly at our, I think it was our men's retreat if I'm remembering this correctly, but I'm like, yeah, I feel like I am an HSP, and sometimes I like try to run away from it. But I think that's where like the emotional attunement really comes in from what we've been talking about.

Yeah, that all resonates with me so deeply. Particularly, I think that's one of the first things we bonded over, Chris, um, was the way we grew up having to be super attuned to our parents' emotional state. And similarly for me, it was like my mom got to have— like, she was kind of all over the place with her emotions, constantly burnt out and overwhelmed. So she got to have her anger and frustration and all of that. And I was not allowed that. I had to shut mine off and just be attuned to hers. And so it's been a much more challenging journey, being able to look inwards and accept everything going on inside me so that I can actually bring more of that embodied safety and power in my relationships with others. And it makes me—

Hmm.

Yeah, I know we can like talk for hours about this topic, and it's really valuable discussion. And I'd also love to open the floor and like experience it and give our audience an experience of that too, of like, does anybody— well, yeah, would anybody like to kind of take up some space? process some emotion, anything like that, and like really give their emotions some space and voice in this moment for us to hold.

I'll go.

Thanks, Wes. And also like, fuck you at the same time.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, you know.

That's keeping it real.

Yeah, thanks, man.

Keep it 100.

I'm trying to give some emotion, you know. Um, This is, um, this is something that I was just like really present to. I shared this in our previous episode when we were talking about like our stories, but one of the experiences, uh, that I had where I'm like so angry and upset and sad still is this instance when essentially my partner cheated on me and I wasn't dealing with my emotions. And so it just, like, caused me to, like, run and do the same cycle. And I cheated on her, and I did it with one of my really good friends, and it was his wife. Like, and we were, like, trauma bonding over, like, something, right? Like, lack of care. There was something missing for us in different ways. And I experienced myself in that moment. I was like, I'm just, like, on autopilot. And I feel so different now. But I have anger towards, and sadness towards, and confusion still towards my partner sometimes, for my friend, for his wife, my friend also, and everybody that's involved. And it was fucking hard. Like, like the way that sadness comes up for me is just I just feel so fucking heavy. Like, it's, it's hard to be with. And then I'm also angry. Like, these are all the things that people have done to me and no one was there to catch me. And now I have to, like, take the blunt— like, how I experience it is like, I have to take the blunt of this. Like, why isn't anybody else voicing anything? And so there's, like, some anger there. And, um, yeah, there's also, like, a lot of shame and embarrassment that, like, I could do that. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I could do that. And it's confusing because sometimes I don't know what to do with it when I'm, like, in my stuff around it.

Yeah. Really appreciate you so vulnerably sharing that.

And... hmm.

What would you like to do with it in this moment?

I'm hearing you say that, I'm really noticing the gift it is just to be able to share it on loudspeaker. Like, I relate to this as like, I'm sharing this with the entire world, and I've never shared this with the entire world before. And it's refreshing in that way. And, um, I'm also noticing a part of me that's like, someone fix my problems for me. Um, I'm noticing, yeah, I'm really noticing how I want validation. There's a part of me that wants it from like a not a good place of like, I'm not enough. And I think the thing that I really want as I'm working through these feelings is someone just to reflect to me their experience. Not because I need it, because I, like, really just desire connection around this. So I'd love to hear everybody's just thoughts and, like, the real emotions that are coming up for y'all.

Yeah, first I'm feeling really moved, just that— just the courage it takes to, to share something like that. And clearly, like, the, the clear level of work and awareness you've created around this topic. Um, part of me is also laughing because I remember you sharing this with me in, in an Uber, um, in San Diego, and our Uber driver was like, what the fuck?

Yeah, actually, I fucking forgot about that, dude.

A really funny ride. He was like, damn, all right, I'm, I'm along for the ride. He was asking questions and shit. He was, he was in. Um, but overall, man, yeah, like, really honored to be able to hold the space for you. And like, yeah, like, the level of So many emotions I'm sure you've experienced around this. The anger, the sadness, the shame, all of it kind of swirling together in this kind of— I don't know, it's like an internal shit show, I guess, is the way I've experienced things like that before. Like, it's giving me access to— Some of my own shame around things that I haven't forgiven myself for, or, um, yeah, like the way I've treated other people when I had no love for myself and didn't know how to radiate that outwards. So yeah, really just sitting with The power of that share.

I am not my brother's keeper. I am my brother.

I see you.

I see you. I feel you. I feel your pain. And I honor you for allowing yourself and permitting yourself to feel. All of your feels. And, you know, I know I can probably speak for the rest of us when I say that this is always a safe and trusting space for you to be all of Smith. And I can feel confident saying this as well, but I'll speak from From the eye. I'm gonna love you down regardless. Always. Um, so thank you for sharing that, Smith, and for being vulnerable and your courage.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, courage, honesty, truthfulness. Um, my invitation, Smith, is to look at how you are holding, how you are choosing to hold yourself and the people around you through this from a place of true empowerment. This is— you are choosing the experience that you want to have for yourself going forward. You know, we've all done things in our life, said things in our life that we regret, that cause us shame, or that cause us pain, or others pain. And life's kind of life, right? That's just part of being human. And how I witness you being with what was, and how easy it would be to fall into kind of this, this place of a perpetual cycle of judgment or shame or shoving it down, pretend it never happened. That's something we don't talk about, that sort of a thing. But you're willing to tackle it. You're willing to take it on. You're willing to grow and to learn and to be better.

Yeah.

And to do better. It's an inspiration, right? And so I totally get— I'm not telling you how to feel or what to feel. Of course, all the things that you feel are there, they're real. And consider that, um, you're sharing your humanity, not just with us, but with everyone who's listening. I feel, as Freddie said, closer to you. more bonded to you. I see me in you in so many ways because of your courageous choice to share that, man. I loved you before, and I love you even more now. And in many ways, I want to be Smith. I want to be like Smith and have that courage.

Yeah. Oh, my heart is feeling so cared for and so loved on. And it's giving me access to so much right now. Like, I'm noticing the parts where I could be angry and point fingers, and I could say more about that, but I'm like, I'm just really present to all the love. I'm also actually really present to how my relationship is better than it's ever been with my partner. I'm also present that, like, I'm being more authentic with my best friend than I ever have been. I'm present to that, like, I get an opportunity to clean up a mess in a different way. And I'm also really noticing and how it feels in my body to say a scary thing and— and to allow myself to, like, really receive your acknowledgments. Thank you all for your love. This was a gift that I didn't even know I needed. So I retract my fuck you, Wes. And—

And, uh, You're welcome.

Yeah. Yeah, buddy. Thank you. And I love deeply every single one of you. Thank you for holding me.

Love you, brother.

Yeah, I love you. And, and I also have to say, what an honor and a privilege to be able to witness your work and your unfoldment. So it's beautiful. It's beautiful because we're all, we're all working through our shit too, and we get to do it together. And that's the beauty. That's the medicine.

Yeah, man, for sure. You know, like going back to what I said before, it's like, oh, when my client gets this one thing, it's like, whoa, their life changes. I'm like off the moon. But today I have felt that for me in a new way that I haven't felt in a very very long time, but it's new at the same— like, familiar but new. Um, and it feels really nice to be with it. This is the power of feelings, my friends.

That part.

Yes, sir. Yeah, like, really just honoring how you've just bared your heart for us, how you continually bare your heart for us. Love you deeply, and I mean, yeah, we've used this word courage in, like, I think mainly referring to your willingness to share this thing. And I also don't want to gloss over the fact, or just how much courage it takes to feel the thing. Like, yeah, we say like this type of work, coaching, inner work, whatever, it's not for the faint of heart. Like the courage it takes to really dive into your inner world. And even though you likely aren't gonna love everything that's in there right away, it's really fucking scary, powerful work. And so really applaud and honor you for so clearly doing that work and then sharing that with the world.

Thanks, brother.

And I would add the gold on the other side of that scary hard work, man, it's so worth it. I see it in you. I feel it in you. And you can do the same for me.

Thanks, man. Yeah, I like it. What I'm really noticing is like the proudness of myself in this moment. Like, oh, I just did that big scary thing. Oh, I did that thing. But I was— I'm actually really proud with how I'm handling it. Like, yeah, there's bumps in the road, but I am actually proud of it. And, um, man, I don't know why, like, people resist feelings, why I resist feelings sometimes so hard. Um, yeah, they are so beautiful. And, um, you know, one of the things that really captures with me right now in this moment, as like people are getting to witness us do this with each other, is like, Without the dark, there is no light. Um, and I'm like really seeing it. Um, and it's a beautiful concept. And I also think there's reassurance for everybody else on this call that's listening and like, that's available to you as well.

That feels as good a place as any to wrap up this episode. Yeah, really appreciate my fellow kings here for another real-ass conversation on When Kings Unite. It's been an honor to guide this conversation today on the power of emotional attunement. Hope you're leaving with some fresh perspective on how emotionally attuned masculinity can transform your inner world, your relationships, the world around you, just through how you show up. So keep practicing, keep feeling it all, keep showing the fuck up. Thanks for listening. Catch you next time.

Thank you.