🔥 Marriage, Money & Intimacy: Ray & Jessica Higdon on Healing, Faith & Lasting Love

Well, my friends, welcome to another episode of the Day 2 Wife podcast. And we have a remix happening on today's episode. I'll tell you why. Because the first show we did with this amazing power couple was so hot, it burned up the audios. And we're not looking at that as a technical error. Ray and Jessica Higdon are back for the second time.

We did it on purpose because we just wanted to hang out with you guys again.

That's right.

That's what we thought. Keep calling us back.

There was too much. There was too much heat in the last show. Too much truth. Or you even said this before the show. Maybe there was a different message.

Yeah.

That was supposed to come out.

Yeah.

What do you think? Different message.

I think that there are no accidents. So we'll see. We'll see how this goes.

Exactly. Well, we got backup mics on top of the backup mics on top of the backup mics. Matt's got us on lock. All right, perf. So we are going to start with the question. I've already asked you this question before because we did this episode before, but they didn't get to hear it. So who. Who saw who first and who met who first? Like, who met. I actually remember the whole story right now, but let's see if it comes out the same this time.

Right. Like, is it going to come out the same? I feel like you should start.

Oh, I start. Okay. So it was 18 years ago, I believe. 18 years ago. And I had been in real estate for multiple years and had just got my butt kicked. So this is right when real estate was going down and I had lost everything. I'd gone through a divorce. I was in personal foreclosure at the time, and my buddy worked at a life insurance company and said, hey, you should come in and try to get these guys to hire you for marketing. And I'm like, sure, because at that point, I'll try anything to make money. And then he also added, and there's a really cute secretary. And I'm like, okay, you know, great bonus. And so I go in and I see her, and she's amazing. She's incredible. And I was in a really. I was just in a really weird space because I got married very early.

How old were you when you got married the first time?

I got married at 19.

19.

And I had been married for six years, and I had gotten engaged fairly quickly after that. Got with someone, got engaged, got disengaged, and so I'd never really been single since, like, 19 and I was in a bad place. I was drinking a lot, drinking heavily. I'm not setting this up very good. But when I saw her, I'm like, wow, that's. You know, she's pretty amazing. And so we started seeing each other here and there. And I just. At the time, I was dating around, but I just couldn't stop thinking about her. She was. I just love being there. And then one day, we were partying fairly hard. Back then, a lot of tequila was.

I mean, I'm what, like £118 maybe? And I think at one point I. We had like, between the two of us, 21 tequila shots or something. Like, I don't even. To this. I don't even know how we did it.

21 each.

I know, I know. One night. I don't know why I counted, but one night I had 17. I don't know why I counted that, but, you know, maybe to share it right now.

But one.

But she. She went into work, so I. So I'm trying to figure things out at home on the Internet and trying to Internet market and everything. And, you know, she's going into work right to this life insurance company. And so she was not feeling good at all. And so she goes in one day, and I just. I love gifts, I love surprises. I love being romantic. I love doing stuff. And I had done that with other relationships and never. Never really got a. Reciprocated. Not reciprocated, but never felt appreciated. And so I go in, you know, that day that she was sick, and I bring her in soup and tea and, you know, a couple other things. And I'll never forget it. I can still picture it today. She. She sees what I've done, she stands up, she starts crying, and I. I had never seen this kind of gratitude ever in my life. And I was just. That's it, man.

Had you guys. Had you guys hooked up yet or. No. Prior to the soup? We had.

Yeah.

I don't remember. I'm gonna go with I don't remember.

That's what. That's. That's all. That's a philosophy.

I kind of fast forwarded that story.

21 shots.

If she can react that with a soup, like, is it the same reaction if it's a Chanel?

Same exact reaction. No, I mean, on the other side, from my perspective, like, nobody had ever actually thought about me that way before. And he's to this day, like super acts of service. That's his love language. And it's so beautiful. And when I first saw him come into the office. I don't know. For women, sometimes you just know. Like, it doesn't make sense. He was older than me, had two boys.

Still. I'm still older.

He's still older than me, has two older boys, you know, which. They're amazing kids, but at the time, I was young, you know, so I had two kids older than me partying his face off, you know, just. And going through all this stuff, it didn't make sense, but in my spirit, I just knew. I think this is it. Like, this is. This is the guy I'm gonna marry.

What's your age difference?

11.

11 years now.

It's not a big deal, but.

Yeah, back at the time. How old are you when you met?

20.

Oh, so you were like a baby.

Yeah.

Yeah. Back then that's like, super taboo, especially with two kids. Yeah.

Yeah. What did your parents think about you hanging out with Ray?

Well, they knew better than to tell me everything they thought because I was just that person, you know, I. If you told me not to date him, I would date him more. But I think they were concerned, you know, because he was older and didn't know exactly what he wanted from me. I think any parent would think the same way. So.

Yeah.

I met Garrett when I was 18. He was 25. And my mom flat out said, like, there's a lot of fish in the sea. Keep going, honey. I was like, oh. And then I go, don't worry, Mom. Like, we're not. It's not serious. We're just having fun.

That's so funny.

22 years later. But back then, I remember thinking the same thing. He had a kid.

Yeah.

And my mom's like, oh, my gosh, what is she doing? Like, yeah, but I kind of. Same thing. I, like, it was like, no.

Like, I think about it now, I mean, I would be the same way. I could have been an 18 year old. If my daughter started dating a 25 year old who was divorced with a kid. I'd be like, what do you want, bro? For sure, bro. What's going on right now? Come on, let's have a talk.

Yeah.

Which I get it. But it's interesting now. Like, the age gap thing is becoming even bigger.

Yeah.

Like now. Now we're like, normal.

Yeah.

Our gap is like, normal.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

Now you're like, 25 year gaps happen. 30 year gaps happening.

Yeah. Yeah.

Which is much different. Okay, so he. He doesn't have shit going for him at all when he made it. He's a f. Is that when you got the tattoos?

I got these in high school.

Okay. That was prior. That was prior too, yeah.

Oh, I think since we've talked. I've been to your high school reunion since then, so I got some real.

Yeah, give us, give us one of the details. You found out from high school.

He made his, I want to say sophomore teacher cry and quit her job.

I wasn't a good kid.

He wasn't at all. Dealt drugs, skipped school, fell asleep in class, wrestled alligators.

No, no.

You're coaching.

No, that was my buddy trying to get you to wrestle alligators at the reunion.

So anyway, I know the question was.

Hey, we got them.

Now I need to know, where did you go to high school? Were there wrestling alligators?

Cape Coral. Cape Coral, Florida.

Yeah. Okay. They actually have alligators there.

Oh, yeah.

All around.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, wow. Have you actually wrestled an alligator?

I have not wrestled an alligator. Now my buddy was trying to get her. He's like, let's go, let's go. Wrestling.

Yeah. I'm not doing that wrestle alligator thing. Okay, so you. So come back to the point though. Like, he, you, you had to have seen or felt something in this guy. Because what it sounds like is we gotta. We got a checklist of why I should run away.

Correct.

Talk about what was. I mean, listen, I don't have shit going on either. Like, I was divorced. I have a career I didn't know I was doing. I was serving restaurants.

I fixed a shit car. Like, was literally serving at restaurants. Like, my mom's. Like, no, really?

Like, no, really. There's nothing.

There was not a lot of good. I was not a high value stock. I was a penny stock. Very similar raise a penny stock. So what were you feeling back then at 20? Like, describe what the feelings were. Like, even though all this evidence is stacked that this is probably not a path I should take, I was stacked. Evidence why Danielle have chosen me either. But you felt something. Talk about that.

Yeah. So out of all. And you know, I wasn't super experienced at 20 years old, but out of all the other boys or men that I had dated, he was by far the most honest and by far the most sincere. And he. You could just. You just knew, you just knew that he was going to be something special, that there was something within him. Like, I just saw it. I just saw that he had this drive in him. I knew this. All of these situations and circumstances were temporary because of who he was as a person and who he was as a person. Again, was driven, sincere, cared about people's feelings. Very intuitive. Could help people through what they were going through. And people like that, just. If they follow those gifts, they don't just end up being nothing. They become.

I think women, too. Like, we see the potential of, like, our men before they do even. You're like, hey, I'm not. I'm not worried that you're in this spot right now. Like. Like, even for Garrett, I would tell my mom all the time. I'm like, it doesn't matter what he chooses to do. He'll be successful at whatever it is. Because at the time, he wanted to be a. He was going to college to be a football coach. And I was like, yeah, but if he goes. If that's his route, he'll probably go, like, college level, you know, like, whatever. Like, I'm not worried about it, but I think that women. We do. We see. We kind of see the potential, but it's also our job. Or not our job, but I feel like it's our responsibility to kind of, like, pull that out of them.

Yeah. No. Thousand percent. And he was always. He treated me really well. I mean, we definitely had our moments, for sure, but he always treated me very respectfully.

Okay, so the ring on your finger. The ring on your finger. You guys both cashed in. You guys cashed in on a stock that you invested in a long time. Was like getting into Bitcoin before it was cool.

That's right.

Yeah. You went to Bitcoin.

I tell him that every day.

The miners. Well, it's like, I look at a lot of relationships today and. And everybody. There's so many people that want to have that. Like, what you two have created in 18 years, they want to have now. What we've created in 22 years, I want to have now. So they think that somehow I can replace this shitty situation and I'm gonna have this now. But you're not. You're gonna go through all of the same things at a different level. And the hard part, too, with a lot of single guys I meet here in Miami is, like, they're getting married at, like, 45, 48, to girls like, 15, 18, 20 years younger than them. And there's a constant worry and concern that you two and we don't have, which is. Is this thing happening because I have money? That's right. We know I didn't have shit. You didn't have shit. Neither one of us knew what we were doing with ourselves, and both of you chose us.

Yeah.

And that's becoming less and less a thing because of People not only being able to create that condition, but also this feeling. So how far into the relationship did the, the full story come out with you guys? We're like life skin. Life starts happening, business is happening, kids are happening. And then five, six, seven years into marriage, things get interesting.

Ten years in two together, right?

We do, yeah.

What are their ages again?

Six and almost ten.

Okay.

I mean, I can just say that I truly believe the seven year itch is a thing. So I think it was about seven years where I remember, like we would wake up in the morning and just kind of see each other and be like, like not even say hi to each other. Like we weren't even excited to see each other.

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely went through an identity crisis, you know, at the, the height of it for I think when it, when it really started was, was probably around seven years. But I had, you know, set all these different goals and hit them, you know. Inc. 5000 best selling author. Share the stage with pretty much everybody. And, and I thought that that would make me feel a certain way. And it, you know, and it just, just didn't. And and so I was, I knew something was missing, but I didn't know what it was. And so I just started trying different things. I, you know, I tried therapy, I tried hypnosis, did meditation for two years and all of that stuff did actually help. I mean, I think it did help, but it wasn't the answer, you know. And then in 2022, you know, both of us came to Christ and you know, things, things really changed for us.

What did you, what do you guys. When you guys started feeling the drift happen? I mean, we'd probably gone through. Geez, probably six or seven drifts. Pretty significant.

Four.

Okay, four, four to seven in the range somewhere. I don't know. I'm just making that number up. I know that we've had several moments like that. What did you guys start seeing as the signs where the disconnect would, would start to happen? Like, what were some things that started happening for you two as a couple? Because like, people get blindsided by this happening. And it doesn't just happen once. It can happen, it can happen in a couple months if you're not.

I think it happens multiple times in a marriage when you're both at a place where you want to grow.

Yeah.

And so you're trying to get this place. Like, why are we in this weird disconnected space? I think it's because, like. Because we're called to.

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think it came from Both of our childhoods being so different. And kids teach you so much, right. They're there to teach us. So having kids, we definitely saw a drift in how parenting should be. We definitely saw a drift in money based on our past and our different fears or lack of fears or nonchalantness around money. And Ray started having all of these things show up as a dad because of his childhood and what he went through. He had a lot of things showing up as a dad that I didn't understand because I hadn't been through, quote unquote, childhood trauma, like literal physical trauma. And so I didn't even know that that's what that was. I thought he was just not fulfilling my needs, not fulfilling our kids needs, not being there, like he should. Like all these things played out in my mind, like, okay, like why. Why are other dads like this and you're like this, or why are other husbands doing this and you're like this. And that's not a good place for a wife to be. It's a terrible place to compare yourself to other relationships. Everybody's so different. And you can heal from that. You just have to come together and work through it.

I don't think there's a. I don't think there's a woman that hasn't gone through that or a man in marriage. Right. And particularly now with social media is a fucking nightmare.

Sure.

Because now it's 247 comparison about everything. You take me on a trip, what did you buy me? What did you do this when this started? Were you able to talk about that in the beginning with him, or was it just inside you?

No, I didn't understand it because, like, you know, she would, you know, say things to me and I would just take them as, oh, she's challenging me, you know, and so everything was a negative criticism. And I didn't understand that it's actually in. In a good woman's nature to challenge her man to make him better. And so she was trying to make me better, not. Not bring me down. But I kept taking it as bringing it down. So she would, she would come in, she would back off, I would blow up and. And then, you know, just dealing with my own issues of, you know, me being back in childhood, of not being important, not being heard, just. And so I would just shut up and, you know, we'd have a two days of silence. And it wasn't until I learned, oh, that's. That's her actually trying to help me. That's her trying to support me in the most powerful way to make me the best version of myself. And I did not get that for. For many years.

About when. When did. When did that race start shifting for you? When did you. Because, bro, listen, I get 100%. I was constantly in a game with her where I felt like everything she fucking said was critical. Yeah. Like, she would say something and she would think she would. She. She was not thinking it was critical. But everything I heard was, yeah, you're not enough. You're not showing up.

Yes.

You're not getting it done. Nothing you do matters. You're a piece of shit. I should have married somebody else. That's not what she was saying. But everything. She would speak to me. That's how I received it. And I had a ton of childhood shit, too, from sexual abuse to, like, tons of betrayal to, like, all these fucking situations that were, like, coming up for me with all the kids and the pressure. So I would do the same thing. We would isolate, and I would turn her into a piece of furniture. Like, I would emotionally unplug in my wound, put up a wall. Then she'd put up a wall. And then we walk around these two walls up. And then I would start to feel sexually desired. I'd want to have sex, and then it'd feel weird. And then I'd come back and kind of this weird guilt pouty thing back. Like, hey, me and. Me and little guy over here needing a little love.

Oh, are you sorry about that meltdown you had there?

And then I'm feeling bad because, like, I said some shit, and then she's like. And then it was just. It was just awkward. So, like, at what point did you. Did you figure it out? And then, Jessica, from your side, when do you think he actually got it? Because there's one. We think we got it, and then there's. When you guys confirm we got it.

Yeah. You know, there's another interesting dynamic to it in that she had, you know, her mom had been pretty well off to having a breakdown, losing everything, borrowing from everyone, and, you know, just being a very, very tough financial situation. And so when we first started dating, you know, I mean, I'm broke. She's paying my utility bills. And once we started making money, I'm like, oh, cool. You know, And. But it seemed like she got more stressed. Like, the more money we made, the more stress. So she would. I'd be working in the office, and she'd peek in, say, hey, the bank account's down. And I'm like, oh, okay, okay. Like, to Me, that's like, you're not working hard enough. Like, you aren't a man. Like, what's wrong with you? So I'd work harder. Then she'd peek in and be like, you seem stressed out. I'm like, yeah, I'm stressed out. And so it was this weird thing, and we had to have that conversation. And it turns out that she had, you know, a program that the more money we made, the more likely it might go away. And so it was a triggering thing. So we had that dynamic. Plus the. I didn't understand that she was chastising me. So I. In 2020, right when Covid started, I had to make some very big shifts. I had 10 speaking engagements canceled right away, and just everything changed. And I decided to go in a very different direction in 2020. I think for. I think at that point, probably for seven years straight, I dropped 100 grand or more a year in my education, mentorships, masterminds, worked with Cardone, worked with Russell Brunson, worked with a whole bunch of rock stars. And I just went in a very different direction and hired different people to try to heal me and see what the hell's wrong with me. And that's when I started to understand what she was actually doing and that she was really standing for me, not against me. And. But it probably took till probably 2022, maybe, I would think that I really got that. And I still have moments where I'm like, oh, she challenged me. But, no, I think we're a lot better.

When, Jessica, when do you think you got it?

Like, a year ago, I think, again, all that stuff, I think, really helped and at least helped us communicate better. But I feel like I can bring him anything and he won't take it so personally anymore. We can talk through it, because before I felt like I would. And a lot of that is God just revealing that to him and giving him the revelation of. And, you know, maybe you want to share that story, maybe not. But giving him the revelation of he. He had to break him to a point where he would love himself enough and love himself enough not only for a lot of things, but to communicate with his wife effectively. Because I was saying those things out of love for our family, not out of discouragement towards him. And there was that. That time that we mentioned where I would just be walking on eggshells, and I just felt like I. There was a point where I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to walk on eggshells. I don't want to be tiptoeing around. And that breeds a lack of trust. Also, if I can't talk to you about money, if I can't talk to you about these important things that go into relationship, then I can't trust you to steward it and to handle it. And for women, trust is everything. So I now feel like from the different revelations that he's had, and I'm so grateful that he's the type of man that wants to get better, because I couldn't force him to do these things. He had to want it on his own. I'm sure it's very similar for you. Like, she couldn't force you to want these things. It doesn't work that way. Then it's just, like, nagging and like, you should be doing this. And I had to stop, step back, and let him just figure that out on his own. And I'm so grateful that he's the man that he is and did that, because now I can go to him with anything, and I don't feel like it's going to be taken the wrong way or, or turned into something that it's not. We can talk through it and create a solution from it, which is what marriage is all about.

So I noticed the dynamic, and we watch this happen at Wake Up Warrior all the time, too, is our guys will come into process and they'll start to work through their stuff. And then around us, we're like, bro, you are winning. You're the best you've ever been. And then they're wondering why six months to a year into the work they're doing, just like, yeah, I think it was about 20, 22. And then Jessica's like, that was about a year ago. Same thing with me. I'm like, I feel like I'm, like, making huge leaps and bounds. And then her feedback is like, no, you're not even there yet. And I'm like, so it leaves, it leaves guys in a very confusing place. Yeah, because. And I'll go with the other direction. Like, can you share all of your shit with her? Like, are you guys at that point now where you feel safe enough as a man to share all of your vulnerable pain with her?

I think so. I think so.

I feel like you don't share a lot of.

Yeah.

Things that I'm, I don't know.

I mean, I, I, I mean, I've really. Over the last, especially the last two years. You know, two years ago, I was in, I was in prayer, and I was very frustrated. My Oldest son wasn't talking to me. I just lost, like, $3 million in investments, big hotel expense. Like, it's just. Just things were just punching me in the face. And I'm frustrated. I'm in prayer, and I'm like, God, what's going on, man? And I get. I had to keep breaking you so you would keep searching and find the need to love yourself. That's what I got. Like that. Those aren't my words. I don't know what that even means at the time. And so, you know, what's that mean? And so he revealed to me about two weeks later that I had this process that at the end of every night, I would do an audit of my day and find one thing to beat myself up about. Either I ate a cupcake or I screwed up a sales call or something. I would find something, no matter how good the day was. And so that began the process of me. When I encounter anything, any situation, I'm not looking at the situation. I don't care about the situation. I don't care if it's a lawsuit diagnosis. I don't care. It's not the situation. I look to God, and I'm just asking God, what am I to do about this? What are we doing about this? What am I to learn from this? And so I just don't have that stuff anymore, you know? Like, when we got rescheduled for this, I just thought, well, either I'm supposed to share something, we're supposed to share something else, or we're supposed to go grow closer, or both. There wasn't a negative. Like, oh, man, I gotta drive two hours again, you know, there was none of that. And so I just. I don't think I have a lot of negativity to share anymore. I don't. I don't think.

No, it's not negative, just growth, you know, But. But do you feel like you would be opposed to sharing something with me that is bothering you or that we need to work?

I've shared. I've shared stuff. I mean, over the last two years, we had. You know, there were some challenging times. There's some different challenges we've had that I shared with you.

Yeah.

And so I think the hard. If you look at this from. From a guy's perspective, because this is a challenge. And girls, I want to hear from both of you on this one. The message is to men, we want to know your truth. Share with us your truth. Right? But here's the challenge that guys run into common challenges. Maybe you guys figured this out. That's why I'm putting it out there. And we'll see. There's only certain amount of weight that I carry that I feel as a man, I can actually put on your shoulders to feel. Because if you dealt with the weight I carry every day, and I actually told you the pressure I'm facing, and I actually was fully like, if Ray and I are going out, I'm like, fuck this, right? And I'm telling him this, and he's like, I know. He doesn't say fuck anymore. He's got the Jesus. So I got the Jesus and the fuck. I'll say fuck for both of us. And I'm like, I'm pouring it out. And you're like, I know. And we can take the weight. Like, fuck those guys. That $3 million, what the. We, like, can go up. But for me to try to come home to her, it's weird. So the trap guys get into is we will share shot glasses of truth with you. Because something in us, either a lie could be a lie that we've been taught, could be. I'm totally open it's a lie. But the story is you can't handle the pressure and weight of what I carry every day. My job is to carry that. So I'm not gonna tell you. So when you hear, like, the heaviness particular on money was a topic, that's a hard one. Yeah, right. And the weight of it, because we built and then I lost everything. So we walked. I built again. I got off track. I was addicted to Feel Free tonics. I was in a different state of being. I was off track.

Yeah.

She could see signs of when I'd lost my first empire of what was coming a year later if I didn't change. But even in that situation, I wasn't still telling her everything. So, Danielle, you first, and then Jessica. Like, share what from the female perspective? Like, what things you actually want to hear.

Sometimes you, like, it's important that you share. But sometimes, even when you don't share, like, based on, like, how you're doing mentally and physically, I'm like, this is too heavy for him. And I want you to feel like you're in a space that you can share with me. I think for us, like, I'll ask you things about the business or whatever, and you have a story where you're like, I don't want to put too much pressure on you, or, I don't want to put too much weight on you. But I'm like, but I can already see the weight that you're experiencing. So, like, let me be a part of it.

How much, though? And I think that's the question for both of you is, like, how much of the weight do you want to really feel? Because there's moves as entrepreneurs we're making at times where we're about to hard pivot around a corner, and we know that going around this corner is unknown. We have some security over here, and sometimes we have no security over here. We're just like, I'm betting on myself on this one. We're taking a hard left now and then, trying to come back home at night with the kids and pretend like we didn't just pull a hard fucking left today and our phone's not blowing up with people who are on that ship that just turned left and five of them just fell off. And we know we've got ahead, true north, this way. Like this. This is a serious question.

Like, I don't know if I need to know the details. I'd just be like. I mean, if you're like, babe, we lost everything tomorrow. I mean, I appreciate if you tell me that, but if you're like, hey, I decided to go this way, we're gonna be fine. And you give me, like, the security of, like, hey, my life's gonna be a little bit of a shit show for the next month. It's gonna be chaotic. I have events, I have this. But this is the direction I feel like we need to go. So, like, you don't have to tell me every little detail, but I don't know. I feel like I would want to know, like, why you're so stressed out.

We definitely know that there's. We always know that when there's something going on. And you think we don't, but we do. We see it instantly. The moment you walk through the door, we know we can see it.

How do you see it on Ray when he comes in? You know, he's. Or he's in his head trying to build and fix shit.

In his head? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's in his head. He's just a different. It's a different energy. That's the only way I know how to describe it. Completely different energy. So we already know what we want to hear is, hey, there's some stuff going on, but I'm going to get us through it. That's what we want to hear. We want to know. And also if you feel the need to bring us in, or maybe not the need, but you feel like there's something really heavy going on. And our advice would help. That's what we're here for, too. We're here to help guide and direct the ship as well. You know, what's that term from? Or that line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding? Like, the man is the head, but the woman's the neck, and she turns it, you know? So we're here to support and to offer advice. And we have different intuitions, so we might see things differently than you do.

So when we lost our. When we lost everything that first time, I could see, like, the ship sinking.

Yeah.

And I didn't say anything, and he didn't share. And so now, like, if I have an inkling, like, a couple years ago, I was like, oh, the shift is drifting. I kind of take responsibility, like, to not. I have to speak up. Like, I can see that everything's not okay. And I have to do my best to be like, hey, like, we gotta course correct, you know?

Yeah.

But so along that topic, here's a question for you, too. During those stress pockets, like, when you're trying. When you're feeling like she's critical. And by the way, I know you guys have gotten through this. I'm trying to help because there's gonna be hundreds and hundreds of couples who are stuck in this shit like we were. And nobody was languaging this for me. So I thought we were just broken. Like, I was broken, she was broken. We were the only people who were going through this. Then we found out everybody's going through this. During that time, the pressure raises. Sexual desire goes up for guys, but it's a different kind of sexual desire. So I was like, I'm under tons of pressure. I need to release. And then there's. I want to connect and bond with you. How can you tell the difference? Like, talk about the. I want you both to share the difference you feel in us as men when we're under that pressure. And sex is like a desire for us, but it's more of a I want to release, I need to fuck. Which, by the way, is 100%. It is. Feel the pressure. Sex drive goes up because creative energy is blended in there. Like, the power to produce is also the power of sexuality. So it's like this blended, transmuted thing in a business. Talk through those two types of experiences with him, and I'll have you do the same with me. When he's under heavy pressure and sex comes up as a topic versus when you're at the Ritz Carlton and you're having your night over, does this question make sense?

Yeah, it totally makes sense.

So.

If you're in the zone and you're coming home, and I know that there's something stressing you out and we haven't talked about it first, but you just want to go at it right away. I'm, like, not into it at all, but I'll do it because I want to help you, basically.

That's basically, you know, it'll release some of the stress.

Yeah. And I was reading a book recently about this, about women in general. Like, we need to be stimulated first, and then we get in the mood. Whereas men get in the mood and then go. So it's. It's just different. But I. I'm. What's the right word? Amenable to this. Because I want you to release the stress, like, just amenable to it. And at the end of the day, I end up enjoying it. So for me, it's not a huge issue. For us, I don't think it really has ever been. But for me personally, I do prefer, like, when we connect and when you're in that space of being really, really present, unless the kids are in the next room, because we still have small children too. So, like, a lot of it is fast for us no matter what. But I prefer, you know, that presence and just stay a more getting in the mood type of space. But sometimes we don't have that luxury. So I don't really feel like it's a huge issue for me anymore. In the past, it was when I didn't understand the dynamics going on with him and couldn't communicate.

But now it's like, so back when you didn't understand because we went through that too. Like, we went through 14 years.

Yeah.

Of not being able to communicate on it. And I constantly felt rejected. So not only did I feel like I was being criticized, I feel like I was being sexually rejected. So, like, you add the 1, 2 punch to a man, it's like, not only do I feel like I'm being criticized all the time, I feel like I'm being rejected sexually. I have no release and I'm being criticized. Which again, is not what girl you were trying to tell me, but that is what I and 99% of dudes interpret from their wives is not only are you not satisfying me sexually, you're telling me no, and you're telling me I'm a piece of shit and not getting it done everywhere. I don't know how to win right now. So we go into this thing.

So I think that's where you, at least for me, and maybe you have a different perspective, but at least for me, when you tell us that's where bringing us in matters. Like, if you're stressed, you got a lot going on and we are worried that you're not going to provide and we have to take on more than what we thought in that moment or what have you. It's not that we would criticize you for that. It's just we need to know that's when the. I'm gonna get us through this. Then I'll be open to sex all day long. Like, if you, at the end of the day, you're going through stuff, we're here to support you be together as a couple, it's 100% you, 100% me. If you say, as my provider, hey, I'm gonna get us through this. That's all I need to hear. And then I'm open for business. But when I don't know that and I don't know what's going on with you, and you're like in your own world and I can't tell if you're stressed or, or mad at me or, you know, then it's very hard for women to get into that space.

So. Right with you. And then Danielle, come to your perspective on this. Go back to the stress pockets.

Yeah.

Because, dude, these are the, these are like the mother death kill shots for guys.

Yeah.

You feeling the pressure, but you feel the sexual tension. But you feel also the weirdness of telling her about what's going on. Because it might not work out while we're trying. Yeah. This is part. They don't get half the shit we're doing. We don't even know if it's gonna work out.

Right.

Right. And then we have to come home, be like, I got it. And then in back your mind, you're like, I think I got it.

Yeah.

But I'm gonna put on the. I got it. So we get laid tonight. I'm gonna like just walk through dynamics, how it shifted for you. Because not just with the criticism, but also with the openness. Go back to what it was before.

Yeah.

And then what it's become now. Because obviously Jessica's expressing that. It's become something much more beautiful now.

Yeah.

Go back to the pain pocket and then come to now.

Yeah. First it was, it was communicating about the money thing. Right. And, and, and because I, I'm like, well, she's. I, I basically like you said, like she is saying, I'm not a man when she says bank accounts down. Like, I took. You're not a man. You're not doing enough. And so of course I'm stressed out. You just said I wasn't a man. But that's not what she said. That's how I took it. And so I had to share that. I'm like, listen, when you do this, this is how I feel. And she's like, well, I'm not trying to make you feel that way. And so we had to first work through that. But I very, very much remember what you're talking about, about feeling criticized, feeling rejected. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I'm feeling completely lost. I'm losing on all angles. And I just didn't know how to communicate that. But I needed some sex. And it just. And every rejection was just worse. And because there was a period of time where she wasn't open for business, and that was just. It was just very crushing. I understand it now. I understand it that I wasn't being connected, that I wasn't being confident. I mean, I was just messed up. I didn't know what the hell's wrong with me, because I'd achieved the things I thought would make me feel better about myself. And so we just had to grow in communication and, you know, and I don't know. I don't know when it made the shift. I remember one argument we were having, because a lot of this for me was when we lived downtown. Like, almost all of. All of this kind of stuff was when we lived downtown. And I remember we were in an argument, and I don't remember about what, but I had this thought that I'm not important. And I realized for the first time in my life that I've had that thought 10,000 times. And when I would have that thought, I would just shut up. And so we'd do two days of not talking to each other. And all of that came from my childhood, just not being important. But that day I'm like, no, I don't want to think that way. And I felt like I was losing my mind. And so when I. When I, like, took captive that thought, I'm like, I don't want to think that anymore. And I realized I've thought that a thousand, you know, ten thousand times. And I can't sleep that night. I'm up all night. Every time I close my eyes, it's like lights going crazy, and I feel like I'm losing my mind. And so I stayed up all night. And the next morning I just like, Surrendered. And I said, jess, here's what's going on. You know, clearly when we get into a confrontation, I think I'm not important. So I shut up. That's why this always goes down the same exact way. It always does. And I'm tired of feeling that way. I don't want to feel that way anymore. And I'm sorry. And I think that that may have been one of the steps toward better communication.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think guys probably have a hard time expressing when they're in pain. So it's like, finally you're, like, sharing your truth. Of, like, I'm, like, in a painful spot. I feel like I'm, like, going crazy. And it's not. I'm dealing with my own shit, you know?

But it's a. Well, it's a weight, too. It's a. It's. Again, it's just an interesting weight because so much of what we as men operate off of is a place of certainty as entrepreneurs in ourselves and also respect. Right. So if for some reason we don't feel respected, we have to double down on our certainty.

That's right.

And you have to learn how to do that because the world wants us to fail every move we make. For every person that says, we want you to win, there's another 10 to 15 who actually are hoping that Ray burns again. They feel a sense of pride. You see it all over social media. People want me to fucking lose. There are more people that want me to lose, and there are people that want me to win. So this is the environment we go out in every single day. It's not a safe environment. It's a war zone. So the hard transition for us to come back, and I'm like, okay, I'm at war right now. I don't want to make the war with you. But so often the war would become with her. So I would be at war here, come home with no transition, didn't know how to transition, didn't know how to filter. So everything she was saying was still interpreted through the war lens.

Yeah.

So then we would be at war and the same thing would happen. We went through this loop over and over again, but same like you coming back to it, I had to come to a truth in me, which was I'm not wrong as a man for wanting to have sex and connect with my wife. Like, sex is something I need and desire. But I had been so scarred from three years of sexual abuse from my uncle losing my virginity at 15 to a girl who was 21 while she drugged Me. All this shit had happened to me as a kid where I was. Like, sex, for me was such a fucking nuclear topic. Like, I didn't know how to dance around it, so it was easier for me to just. We went almost 10 years. I didn't initiate one time, which of course didn't work. I just shut it off. I was like, I'm fucking done. Not gonna try. Whenever she's ready, I'll be here.

I don't know if you did not initiate for 10 years.

Almost 10.

Stretch.

Almost 10. And then I even got to a point where she would come at me during those dry spells of, like, two weeks, and I would reject her.

It was like, I'll show you. I was like, okay.

Yeah. You see how that feels?

Yeah.

See how it feels? I've been dealing with that for 10 years.

Back then, though, like, to answer your question, like, I think it was. It was around the time when we had kind of lost everything that I feel like it exposed our marriage.

Yeah.

Like, we had the house and the Range Rovers and the cars, and then the market crashed and we lost everything. And I was like, I don't know who you are or if I even like you.

Yeah.

And I had just had my second daughter, Ruby, and, like, literally, like, she. I was pregnant with her. And I. I. For me, I. I think even though our relationship wasn't good, I had so much purpose in having children.

Yeah.

And I thought, a second baby will fix where we're at. And then when we lost everything, it explained. Exposed everything where we were at. And I think the reality is, like, the first, like, 10 years we were having kids and building. Building life together, we forgot to stay connected. We forgot to communicate. And so although he was like, I need sex, I was like, I don't even know if you like me as your wife. That's how I'm feeling. I'm like, do you see me? Like, do. Are we. We weren't going on dates or we'd go to dinner, but, like, it wasn't like, we stopped dating.

Yeah.

Like, we stopped connecting. We stopped having conversations. We. Like, when you're dating, you build a foundation of communication. That's what, like, really brings you together. And so we had, like, lost that. And we were just kind of roommates with two kids. So it was just. It wasn't. And for women, like, when we don't feel like we're appreciated and unseen, we're police. For me, I'm, like, physically not attracted to you.

Yeah.

If we're connected, I'm like, oh, he's cute. Like, it's. It's different. There's that. That chemistry. So it's kind of. And then when we lost everything, it made it worse because he was walking around in, like, barefoot mala beads, hippie phase, and he didn't even like himself during those years. So I'm like, you want me to.

I'm trying to learn how to love myself.

But that's what I was like. He went from like, this confident speaker mortgage guy to, like, walking barefoot, making no money. And I was like, you don't even like yourself right now.

Yeah, I was trying to find myself.

That's the difference, too.

Like, been there.

Also, how you show up, right? Like, as with that masculine energy and that feminine energy, you know, that that makes a huge difference. And when women have kids, it is like, we just. We process the world, the whole world so differently. So for you, for you guys, you process us the same. And for us, we just. We focus in on those babies, and it just. Our nature and nurture takes over, and we can't focus on multiple things at once in that moment. So, like, when the kids are in the next room, for me to get into the mood is, like, really, really hard. So we just. We process that differently. So when those babies come out, it's like, okay, for our husbands, I think we're second in command or first in command. Right. Like, in the household. But for us, it's like, okay, we've got to make sure these things stay alive. Right? We've got these babies in front of us, and then we can focus on your needs. Right? So it's just a different processing of information.

I have a question for you, though, because here's the thing, and I get what you're saying, because there's times with toddlers, and I'm like, I know you're stressed out. I'm like, we literally have four minutes.

Yeah.

And the TV is on. They've got iPads. We have four minutes. I'm like, I can't get into it, but I'm here for you.

Exactly.

And he'll be like, wants me to get into it. I'm like, babe, I can't. My brain is thinking about toddlers. Totally. Sorry.

Like, are they hearing this?

Like, I'm like, so. But then my question for you is. Is like, then there's sometimes, like, do you still want to take one for the team? We call it. What?

Like, no, I actually got to a new season where I don't even want cookie.

Oh, okay.

Like, I don't even want them I decided I would rather build it up and deliver a kill shot. Like, like, just store it. Because I used to like that that was the case, like, and I felt like that became too much of what the game was. And I was like, I'm gonna build more sexual tension here. Now I can't build too much sexual tension because then it's like overwhelming. But the piece, I mean, I don't even think about. It was like a month, a month and a half ago. It was a Sunday afternoon. And you're like, hey, we got about 15 minutes. And I was like, 15? How about 20? You're like, you got 15, let's go. So we got into it a bit and then she was getting into it with me. And then I had moved the chair in the master bedroom to block the door because the lock's not working.

Oh, man.

But I've never tested that if you could push the door or not. I just assumed you'd couldn't assume a.

Toddler can't push a chair.

So we're, we're. She's finally into it. About seven, eight minutes in. We're having a great time. I'm like, this is what I'm talking about. We're going 20 minutes, maybe, maybe 30. The kids are fine. They might fall in the pool, but they know how to swim. They're fine. Like, I'm not worried about any of that. I'm like, I put them in swim training for a reason. And we're sitting there, blankets are off, just us two naked in the bed. And my three year old is pushing the door open, pushes the chair away. Easily moved by a three year old, by the way. Horrible strategy. No testing done my bipart at all. And she's standing in the doorway looking at us. And she's like, mom, dad, we both are looking at each other and I'm like. And my mind is trying to calculate how to quickly get her out of there so we can finish.

Right, right, right.

And we're like, there's no way.

Where's the dart? Shoot her with the dart gun. Shoot her. I'm like, charlie, go away, go away. So then it gets worse. She gets off and we come to try to coordinate the three year old. We're both naked or like grabbing a blanket, trying to move her out. So I get an idea that we push her out the door and then we shut the door. And then I'm gonna grab that heavy table and pull the heavy table over. What I didn't know about the heavy table was a heavy table. Had a vase on it. And heavy table was not attached to the legs.

You were just sitting there.

It's just a slab of rock. So I'm strong, and I grabbed the slab of rock right off the top of the stand. The legs stay, the top goes. The vase falls, shatters everywhere. Baby's still in the hall. We're still naked. And I'm like, my brain is still thinking, how can you sweep all this shit up real quick? Right.

We're done. We're done.

I was like, I have not finished. This is going to happen.

That's awesome.

So I.

So, Danielle, did you finish?

Yeah, I finished cleaning up the glass.

But this, like, this. This piece, like, this topic of sex in marriage is so you guys seem very comfortable talking about it.

Yeah.

With each other. Yes. But this is. Most couples. This is not a comfortable conversation. It turns into a fight almost every time.

Yeah.

Like, we were sitting with 50 of our guys last week, and I was like, one by one pulling dudes up. All of them going through the same thing. They don't know how to. Every time they try to communicate about sexuality with their wife, it turns into a fight. She either gets offended, he gets offended, etc. When you guys go back to when it was tougher and you weren't as open in this communication, what was what? What would have had to have changed back then? And the same question for you and I, Danielle, because if we now can talk about pretty much anything.

Yeah.

And we're in a calmer. I'm in a calmer place where I can hear anything she's saying. I don't think it's criticism. I'm like, okay, I get her. Yeah. I can see how she feels that way. I get what she's really trying to say. What would have had to have shifted back then, specifically for you two, so that you felt seen and heard while you were in the pressure, you could communicate then. That now easily flows like, what. What are. Maybe one thing, Jessica, from your side. Could he have done back then, besides the shutting down part?

So I honestly think it goes back to, like, stepping into the masculine energy. Right. Like everything that your brand stands for. Because he had performed, quote, unquote, with things and money. But I still felt like he wasn't fulfilled. Like, I was like. I still felt like I was his only fulfillment, if that makes sense. And so when we, as women, or really anybody, if you feel like you're that person's only purpose, fulfillment, it gets. You get this, like, clingy nature, almost like, of, oh, my gosh And I didn't realize that this had stemmed from trauma also in his. In his past, because he couldn't trust people. And so I was, like, literally the only person in his life that he trusted, wanted to be close to. And so I felt. I felt smothered in a way. And at the same time, he felt completely rejected, which caused him to want to almost, like, smother me more and more. And so since then, there's just been, with that communication, been a complete shift of that energy. And so I'm now open for business.

For lack of a. You have hit a topic. We're gonna pause real quick and cut this out. Jesse, can you do me a favor?

My nanny's trying to get me out.

Can you back the G wagon out and take the Navigator? I forgot I parked behind her. Thanks, brother. I know you came all the way from Texas just to do that. Okay. You kind of missed what she was saying because you were stressed about the kids, what you just nailed. That's it. That's it. The thing you just did. Because it's exactly what she felt. That's it. But I'm gonna talk about this a little bit more with you too, because I'm the same way most dudes. So you're regal, beautiful, stunning, powerful. My wife. Same thing, right? You come with a very controlled, like, regal oracle energy. So does Danielle. Most high prodigious entrepreneurs who tend to be crazy, like Ray and I. Big creatives. Go, go. We are drawn to the still calming presence. Unfortunate part is this is a very direct presence too, which means it's completely offensive to us. He's literally totally drawn to it and horribly offended at the same time. I can't get enough of you. And I can't believe I'm with you. I just had a woman who touched me all the time and spoke greatness into my life. And you're like, yeah, that's not coming. You need to fix this. I'm like, so you nailed it, though. You felt smothered, but you back that up with what she said too, which was critical because I couldn't see this. And I was doing it to her too. I didn't really have any friends, had lots of clients, lots of dudes. But Danielle was like, I wanted her. So I was so confused why pouring all my energy into her had her actually feel pressure and smothered. I couldn't get it. Talk about it from your side, because Jessica just laid this out like, too. Because you felt this you language in a way I've not. And I've not heard somebody language it. It was the lead up to his only outlet. Yeah. And desire was you.

Yeah. It makes you feel like you. I'm responsible for your happiness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're. And I can't be responsible for your happiness. And that's so much pressure to where you would feel like, smothered. You're like, I'm going to give you everything I know how to. But in the end, like, you're gonna have to love yourself. And I can't be that. I can't be that for you.

So.

But I felt like I was. I felt like I was dying. Like I didn't understand this. I was like. I was so confused. I was like, hold up. I give you maximum love and energy and you don't feel loved. You feel smothered and too much pressure. I'm like, I don't. This doesn't compute. Because out in our world, out here, if Ray and I do this out here, we get paid, right? We do the same behavior out here. We get paid, praised, trophies, championships. So to me, and maybe not for you, but it sounds like we're kind of the same. I couldn't understand. I was like, from 6 to 5pm today, I did this and I won. I do this here and I lose out here. They say, please give me more pressure out here. We say, you're smothering me. She would literally say to one, I would cuddle with her in bed. She would feel so smothered. I would put my part of my quad on her quad. And she's like. I'm like, what? I can't breathe. I was like, so what's your. What are your.

Twice my size.

What are your lungs and your thighs like? You. Your lungs are up here. You can breathe. You're like, no, it's just too much. Too much.

I'm like, I don't do that anymore.

But yeah, but then my response is always horrible, which is I would like to fine. Like, I would like shut down and push her away.

And like.

Did you do the same thing?

Yeah.

And.

And I. I figured out why a few years ago. You know, when I. When I was in the third grade, I had a teacher that knew something was going on. I wasn't sexually abused. I was physically abused, like, you know, up until 12. And. And my third grade teacher had me start meeting with a guidance counselor, which I didn't understand why, but okay. It was someone to talk to because I never talked to anybody. And you know, when the. I couldn't go to anyone's house. No one was allowed to come over. And so I start trusting this guidance counselor. And then one day I show up, and it's her, my stepmom, and my dad. And she proceeds to tell him everything I've ever told her because she thought it was too outrageous and that I just need more attention at home. And so that. That set a program. I didn't know it at the time, but I set a program of, if I trust someone, they're going to betray me. And so she was the only one I trusted. And, you know, when I. When I learned that programming, I remember the first time I shared it. I shared it. I was at. I was on stage in New Orleans, and a client came up to me who I liked and said, wow, that makes so much sense. I thought you just didn't like me. And I thought about how many thousands of people think I just don't like them because I've kept them all at bay. And so it just gave me. And, you know, I had a coach that helped me through it back then, and he said, you know, you can still be betrayed. You know that, right? I'm like, well, you know. Yeah. He goes, well, what would be the result? And I'm like, I don't know. He goes, well, it'd be their loss. I'm like, oh, yeah. And so. But at the time, I didn't fully get that. And so she was the one I trusted. The one I fully trusted wasn't accepting my advances, wasn't accepting what I'm attempting to do here. So now. Now there's no one, and I'm just by myself. And so did you know, Jessica, did.

You know he was feeling that way then?

No, I. For some reason, his trauma didn't even factor into the equation. Like, I couldn't even see it because I hadn't been through that. It was actually one of our really good friends for our daughter, who was having some behavioral issues at home. She's a behavioral psychologist, and she works for. With. She works with dcf. So she's seen the worst of the worst, you know, horrible stuff. And she's helped us so much. And she. She told me one day, she goes, jess, I was telling her some things going on. She said, you realize that Ray's been through trauma, right? And I'm like, well, yeah. And she goes, no, like, legitimate trauma. You realize that that is affecting him right now. And she just kind of laid it all out for me of certain behaviors that happened throughout our marriage that I didn't even realize it had come from that place. And it doesn't mean that you don't change them. It doesn't mean that you just look over them and say, well, it's just from trauma, so he's going to keep doing them, but he wanted to change them. So it was just. Just being aware. That awareness was so huge for our marriage.

Yeah, it was the same thing. Same thing for us. I mean, my abuse as a kid, I just locked it away. And then what happened to me at 15, which was like an awkward deal. You're like, what are you gonna do as a dude? I lost my virginity at 15 to a 21 year old while I had a girlfriend and she drugged me on mdma, which I'd never taken drugs. At the time. I didn't know. It was weird because in both situations there was actual good sexual feelings. As fucked up as it is as a kid, you're confused. You're like 4, 5, 6 years old. You're, like, having feelings, but it's all bastardized. And wait. So I got to a place with her. Like, I didn't even know how to show up. My first marriage was a fucking train wreck. I didn't even know how. So I was like, I had, like, learned it's unsafe. Unsafe. And the more she didn't understand what I was going through and the more she felt, she felt rejected by me because then I would go isolated for weeks and weeks at a time and just like suffer by myself to this point of just like getting so much work on me. That's why when you said coming back to the love yourself part, that sounded super gay to me forever. I was like, love yourself? What is this love yourself bullshit? Like, this doesn't make any sense, but the same thing that happened to you with the power of Christ happened to me in the last couple years. So here's the fun question. Jess, you ready? It's coming to you too. When he comes to the bedroom fatigued and taking, like, the desires to have sex. Guys do this too. Where we're fatigued. We need you to fill us up. Fill us up versus he comes full to the bedroom, filling you up. Talk about the difference between those two different sexual experiences with you two. I don't need details. I'm just like, what's the. What's the. I mean, if you want to go detail, that's great. Like, what? And I'm gonna come to you the same question, because I'm very aware that as men, as a man, I do this, there's times where I'm Coming. It sounds weird to say I'm taking. I'm like, I'm hollow. I need you to fill me up versus I'm full. I love myself. I'm full. I'm good. I'm here to fill up and connect with you. Is this making sense, what I'm saying? Okay. What's it like for you when you've had, like, emotionally, as a woman, those two different sides of receiving Ray from I need you to give me versus I'm here to give you.

It's just a different level of attraction, for sure. You know that word you used, unsafe? Like, we never want you to feel unsafe. That's not attractive to us. We want you to. To be our safety net. Right. So when you feel filled up in your words and you come with that energy, for me at least it's a completely different level of attraction. And I feel like you've always been really good at that anyway, because you're acts of service in every way. So he's always been really good at that part in the bedroom, I would say. But there's definitely been those moments. And I'm sure there's been moments where I've been unattractive, too. Although I don't know if that works for guys or not.

Because you've never been unattractive.

No, there's definitely moments where I'm like, really? You want it now?

But yeah, you guys, you got. That's why I told Danielle. She's like. I was like, baby, listen. 1051-151251-35145. I'm down. Pregnant breasts, I'm down. Like, you look hot all the time. She's like, no, I don't. I was like, no, no, genuinely, when a guy chooses a woman, he's like, yeah, that looks good. And then, like, you feel like. And you don't like how you look. And we're like, I don't. You don't look bloated. What are you talking about? You look fantastic. You look fine. You look great. I love that. So this piece with Danielle and I, like, has been really, like, an exercise for me this year in a big way, particularly the last, like, three months.

Well, I was going to say, to answer your question, it's different when you. When you. At nighttime, if you're not, like, in a needy space, it makes me be like, feel more like. How do I word this? It makes me feel more safe. Like, I'm like, okay, I'm sure he's down to have sex right now, but you're not coming in the room. Like, all right, it's time.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Like, but then there's also times, too, where, like, I want you to feel safe enough to be like, hey, I'd like to have sex tonight. I'm like, okay, great. You know, But I feel more safe when your energy is, like, coming into, like, just cuddle me, hang out, like, whatever. Then I'm, like, more open to, like, oh, okay. I'm open to this happening. But when you come in with the energy of, like, we're gonna get this done, I'm like, oh, really?

Okay. So here comes another question for you too. I got Jess, you're doing great. Usually we have always great female guests, but you two are. You two are vibing as good. And this topic literally is fresh off of an event I did last week.

Oh, nice.

And this was. All my guys were talking about this. We're modeling it out. Everybody's trying to figure out the dynamic. Because once you crack it, like, you guys are cracking it. We're cracking it. There is a soul sex available and a connection available that is beyond orgasm for me. Mm. Which I want. I want guys to taste this. At first, I was like, I just want you to have sex. Now I was like, oh, no, no. I want you to taste this. But this dynamic of unpacking, this is the hard part. Okay, so there's a certain element in which you want us to be masculine, which means we contain and we take you. How? How? What. What fucks that up? Oh, because watch the dynamic. Well, it's like, there's moments where you're like, you're not really in, you're not really out, but there's a piece of you wants me just to handle it, meaning not handle myself in a bathroom. I mean, take you not aggressively, physically. I'm saying I'm gonna not listen to any of your answers. You and I are gonna have a good time. You're beautiful. I love that you think we're not doing this, but we're doing this. And you're gonna love every second of what I do on you right now. Do you understand what I'm saying? And then. But there's. Cause we've played through this dynamic where she's like, well, why can't you just act like. Like, where's my trainer from the warrior events? And I was like, when? Well, two things. One, they're paid students, and they have signed up for this. And number two, they listen to everything I say.

Right, Right. Okay.

They don't stand up and say, I don't like this process. I don't like where this is going. Like, sit down. You paid 10,000 to be here. Shut the fuck up. Right? So. But you two have, like, a power button, which you can be like, so how does Ray have to show up Jessica, so that you would be. Or even if you have had oversensitive touch from the kids all day long. And he's like, hey, I'm coming home tonight. And this is happening. You've had these moments. What has to be different to where it doesn't feel like you're being. It's rude or it's pushy, but there's actually a no to a yes, you're coming to this question next, Danielle.

I mean, it's such a good question, you know, I mean, this might be a silly answer, but it's an honest answer. When he puts the kids to bed, for me, I have a renewed energy. Like, I don't want him to do it every night because I love putting them to bed. But at the same time, like, it's a process. It takes a long time. At the end of the night, I'm exhausted because they've told me no 50,000 times. And I've been, you know, the warrior mom coming in here, trying to get things done, and then I've gotta now relax and, like, just be taken. I'm like, no, I just wanna watch my show. But if you. But if you do some of those acts of service for me before and give me some time to get myself, like, ready and energized and, like, relax for a little bit, like, if I get a little bit of me time at the end of the night, then I'm much more game. And I feel like for me and for you will go in a different direction.

I think that's the secret, though, for. Especially if you have young kids. Like, you just said something like, we. At the end of the long day, even if we're just with kids or whatever, like, I feel like we're overstimulated.

Yeah.

And.

And it's funny because he'll be like, why you were overstimulated? Why are you now on your phone and watching a show? Isn't that, like, more stimulating? I'm like, no, it's like, for me, it's, like, relaxing.

It's like, me time.

Yeah. Literally, you're like, I don't care if I'm scrolling on Instagram and watching a movie at the same time. Like, I just. I need this for me.

Yeah.

And I think if we can step away because like, for me, like, sometimes the kids, like, it does something to my nervous system almost like where I can't physically relax. Like, I mean, I got a three and half a six year old thrown. I mean they're in that age where it's crazy. So it's like, for me, I need my, like, literally just to, like you said, relax. And then it's like, okay. And if he puts the kids to bed, I'm like, hey, I'm like, even though I appreciate he puts the kids to bed, like, I'm more open to it versus like it. Otherwise it's a shit show with kids.

Yeah.

Okay. So we saw another one that we're doing good on this lesson. One or two more questions a little bit. We had, we had Susan Bratton here, the sex therapist that was here on the show and she was talking about this dynamic that 90% of the time women do not feel are not going to ever be in the mood, but 90% of the time, meaning they're not going to initiate. And 10% of the time they will initiate. But you can always get a woman to warm up. But most are never ready to go until they warm up. Right. You were kind of speaking of that. Danielle's spoken to that too. Ray, from your side, how often do you want to see her initiate? Like it. Knowing that most initiation is coming from our side, how often do you want her initiate? Or is that not even a thing?

If she initiates a lot, she does not initiate. Like I ever. Yeah, I don't, I can't recall time you've initiated. I would like it. Like, I think about these things, but they. I don't think I've ever experienced. Experienced it.

Do you know that? Do you know that? This of the greatest fantasies for all men. All men. Not one dude off the radar on this one. Because we think in our minds that you guys actually are like us.

We're not.

We know this, we know this. But in our minds there's a part of us who wants to like come home being like such a hard day at work today, and all of a sudden you come rolling out of the kitchen, you're in a thong with heels on, and we're like, what? You are getting, getting it right now whether you want or not. Do not tell me no. And I'll be like, no, no, please don't tell me.

Stop.

You have, you have, you've initiated. But that was. That came after me going cold turkey. No initiation. And then you saw that was the.

Only Way to get it. I went through, like, probably a solid, like, five years because he felt so rejected for so many years, and to the point where we almost ended our marriage. And I was like, oh, my God, I didn't realize I was making you feel this way that you feeling rejected. This had such a toll on our marriage. And so I was like, I'm gonna make an effort to be the initiator. And so for, like, years, I was the initiator. And then I kind of got to this place where I'm like, can we split this? Because it was a lot of pressure on me. Like, I was like, I hold the sex card. I don't want to hold the sex card. Like, that's too much pressure. And so then I kind of, like, backed off. But then it's in a space, too, where then it's like, I don't want you to feel rejected again. But it's. I mean, it's a circus.

It's circus. Yeah. I don't.

It's a. Well, it's a thing. And it's interesting because Danielle didn't initiate for a very, very long time, and now she's kind of back into it. I don't. Initiate phase. Yeah.

I think I got into a phase where I was always the initiator, and.

I was just like, I don't know why, but it's very uncomfortable for me. Like, there's so many things that are open in our marriage, but it's just. I don't know why. I have no idea why. I'm sure it'll come up in some way, shape or form at some. Yeah. At some point, through some coaching.

Danielle. Danielle didn't really. Danielle didn't really initiate until she did bodybuilding. I think, with her fitness competition, like, brought confidence and certainty of being in a bikini on stage.

I initiated before that.

Not, like, after much, but.

Yeah, but I think it was interesting. But it. For me, like, it's. I think that's what we're taught is, like, the guys initiate, the girls don't. Like, that's not, like, our role, you know? And so for me, like, when I started to get in really good shape, it turned kind of fun. I liked that. I kind of. But then it got to the point where I was like, I'm tired of always being the initiator. So there's definitely, like, a balance to that, but I can't imagine, like, for a girl. I mean, when is he. I think he rejected me, like, twice ever, you know?

Yeah. Like, for 10 years. For 10.

Yeah. Yeah, like, he maybe. I can't imagine for a guy, his wife's like, I'm too tired. I have a headache. The toddlers are crazy. Like, you guys get rejected, you're probably going to bat 50, 50. Like you don't know.

No, no, it's more like we're. We're MLB baseball players in the Major League Baseball. If you can hit. If you can get a hit 2 out of 10 times, they call you a pro.

That's what I'm saying.

Look at, look at the psychology from a guy side, though. Like, we are in a world in business where we are. We refuse the no. Like, if we can. If we accepted no in the business space, we'd have no money. So we're constantly, like, reframing, finding new way. Oh, you're no. Fine, I'll get a yes over here. It's weird for us in Mary Joe because we've chosen one water bottle. It's not like I can choose another water bottle. I'm like, oh, you're not gonna give me a. You're not gonna give me a Dasani. Fine, I'm gonna go get a Voss.

Yeah.

In business, we can just move.

Yeah.

So the complexity in our brain. This is why guys screw this up so much, though, because we don't. There's no. There's no blueprint on how you're supposed to think. We're creating a blueprint right now, talking.

Yeah.

Because we don't know how to think. It's. I'm like, oh, oh, you don't want to work for me? That's fine. Goodbye. You're replaced. New person.

Yeah.

Oh, you don't want to be a contract with our company now? That's fine. Goodbye. New contract.

Yeah.

With kids and wife. It's like, oh, you don't want to sign the contract? I'm going to go work. I'm going to go get a. I'm going to go do another deal. Which is why guys end up isolating away, pouring so much into the business. Women feel scarred and unseen. Men don't know how to bridge the gap. I'll just make more money, buy her more shit. Make more money, buy her more shit. Go on the magical sex vacation. Then we'll go back to the desert for a while. It's super confusing, which is what you were going through and I was going through too, for a long time. Now we're in a different place. We're opening communication now. So last question. What's the most exciting thing you two are excited to explore in Each other. It doesn't have to be sexual. Just like Jessica. What's something you would like to see open up for you two as a couple, knowing you've gotten to an amazing place after 18 years, like, what's the next level?

Yeah.

And the same question for you, like, what's the thing you want to see open up between you two that's maybe already there that you just would like deeper and more passionately or isn't even there yet?

I think that for us, like there's such a new chapter opening with raised joy coming back or maybe being there, like true joy, true presence for the first time. So I'm really looking forward to this season as not only a husband, but as a dad. Because the last several, not even vacations, but maybe staycations or little things that we've done with the kids. I've just noticed him showing up in a much different way. So I'm really excited to see his presence and joy come back because really, I think throughout our whole marriage that's all I've been saying, seeking.

Wow.

Wow what? Hey, well done. Yeah, that just to be acknowledged for it and then also see it. Bro, that's like, that's huge. Work on your own for sure. And Ray, what's one thing for you? What are you excited about seeing open up for you too?

Me initiate.

Well, now you got a two hour drive. Talk about the initiation side.

It is awkward at first, I'll tell you.

Yeah.

You know, I, I feel like we have a, a chance to do this all over again. But, but very differently in that, you know, in the past I was chasing success because I was trying to find like what's going to make me feel better about me now. It's, it's just, it's just very different. And you know, the Lord talks to her differently than, than me and, and just for this, this new future of what that actually looks like with God. Because I didn't grow up in the church, I didn't know any of any of that stuff. And, and so it's just, it's just so different. And you know, there's, there's freedom in my business now, which I never felt like I had freedom. There's, you know, there was, there was one last piece that I, it was, it was frustrating to me with, with our relationship and figured that out last week and, and so like, I don't know, I'm just, I'm just really excited about our future to, to go and achieve more, but in a very different way and just impact People in a very different way. And so I'm just excited what God's doing for us.

Beautiful with us. Beautiful Danielle.

Like, what am I excited for this next chapter season?

Yeah.

I think what I've seen in you in the last year is your immovability. Is that a word? Like your grand. You're less willing to get. You're like, just more grounded. Like I can say something stupid. And you in the past might have reactive and now you just like, hold space. And it's very attractive. It's very, like, mature. It makes me feel safe. And what I keep getting is that God needs you to be that man because of where he's going to take you and where he's going to take us. You have to be immovable. And so it's a fun chapter. It's seems kind of scary, but it's. I feel like there's this calm in you that I haven't seen. And it feels like this. The. The version of that you have always been is like, literally, like emerging. It's like. It's kind of like how I met you. But then life and kids and everything got chaotic. And I feel like it's just been a really powerful year to watch you, like I said, just kind of like hold space.

Thank you. Receive that. And thing I'm excited about is inside that immovability is an emotional river in you that's come out of feeling safe, to feel, to share your hurt, your pain, your scars from the past, and to be able to own that truth, which has been something that. I wasn't the kind of guy that could hear it.

I think as women, a lot of times, I don't know if you feel this, but I don't want to share because I'm. Well, he's providing and I don't want to, like. Yeah, ruffled feathers. I don't want to. I'm always the one that's. I'm strong for the kids, I'm strong for the husband. And I'm sure the guys feel the same way. To where you, like, you get this point where you're like, I've got to tell somebody or talk to somebody. And so now it feels like we can communicate better and that I don't have to like, always be like, picture perfect, you know, because that's not how life and marriage works.

Yeah, you two were great. This was a better shape.

Yeah, it was better.

This is better for sure. The last one was great. This is.

I feel like a lot of couples listening to this will like, they'll really relate to the conversations and the honesty that we all had.

Yeah. And thank you both for sharing.

Yeah.

Thank you. Super helpful. You did wonderful. Jessica, you killed it.

Thank you.

We're excited to see your initiator come out.

Yeah.

And, Ray, congratulations on all the work, man. Like, this is the personal work. This is what I stand for. It's what I live. It's what I've helped thousands and thousands of guys figure out. And there's very few who are figuring it out.

Yeah.

And that's where our marriages are burning to the ground, why affairs are happening, why addictions running around them, because people just can't. The guys cannot find the past. So continue being a light that you are, shining the way you are and being the example that you are. And you two as a couple are beautiful. You're amazing. We appreciate you coming down here twice for the. We had to warm up. We had to warm up. We had to put the kids to bed before the second show. That was our first episode. And, babe, great job. You want to close out?

Yeah, sure. All right, you guys, if you are listening to this podcast, share it. If you find it's going to help somebody else or another couple might be going through the same thing, share this podcast. And yeah, thank you guys for being here. And we'll see you on another episode of the day. You write podcast.