Radical Honesty in Relationships: How Ben and Kayla Rebuilt Trust After Betrayal

As I became more and more honest, there was also a fear to it. Like, can she hold this? Will she stay if she hears the next thing?

What the fuck? You just. I thought you told me. Now there's more.

After confessing the affairs, then all the stuff after that of getting rid of all the lies, I did the worst way possible.

Oh, my God. It took him a year to fully get the truth out. And I was like, what else are you hiding?

We're gonna dive right in today with today's show. I'm gonna see where this goes. Kayla, Ben, welcome to the date your life pod.

I'm like, what topic is he gonna start with? I'm scared for you guys.

Kayla, who saw who first? Did you see Ben first? Did Ben see you first?

Talk.

Go back to the genesis of this relationship of insanity and inspiration that you decided to jump into.

Yeah. So we actually met at Chick Fil A. We were working at Chick Fil A, and I trained him at Chick Fil.

A. I saw first. I saw her first.

So he saw me first. I thought he was this, like, cocky prick, and I was like, oh, my word. Why are we. Like, why did we. Why did they even hire him? Like, what is happening? And so he.

Higher standards of Chickfila for hiring, too, then just slipped one right past the goalie on that one.

Yeah. And so I was in charge of training him, and he already came in thinking he knew it all. And I was. He was so slow. And I was like. I was like. It was in the middle. I remember specifically working with him, and it was in the middle of dinner rush, and he was taking forever, making sandwiches, and I was like, who is this guy? Like, I need him off because I need the food, because customers are fussing, like, all of this. And. Yeah. So I specifically. And he thought he was doing fine. And I specifically remember him seeking me out and, like, trying to get to know me more. And I was like, I know.

You'Re.

Yeah. And then he was, like, cocky, and I was like, who are you? Like, some frat boy? What is happening?

So I was jealous because she knew all the guys there, and she'd been working there for a couple of years. So she would come in, all the guys would give her hugs. I was the new guy. So I was like, be weird. Be awkward if I did that. Yeah. So it was on cow appreciation day, or Chick Fil A appreciation, when they used to dress up and they dress up as a cow. And so one of the shifts I got to dress up as a cow. Everybody hugs the cow. Our first picture together. We actually have a picture of me in the cow costume getting to be getting a hug with her.

Yeah.

So that's how I. Then from there, I was like, it was not awkward if I give her a hug afterwards.

So were you. Were you already, like, thinking eye candy? You were already feeling the vibe then when you first saw her?

There's a back and forth. Because at that point, I had already set up a lot of, let's say, habits of going from, like, girl to girl and person. Person. So I was coming out of a relationship at that time that was ending very messy because I was a coward and didn't want to actually call it off. The dad had already told me no that could marry her. And so it was kind of like. It just kind of fell apart. And then that was ending around the same time. So there's a lot of. There's a lot of drama around that ending. And it was kind of a push and pull. I was like, I liked her and then pulled the, like, sister card on her. It was like, I view you as a sister on time.

Oh, no.

And they, like, pushed her away and then pulled her back. It was.

Yeah, I was, like, completely done after that. I was like, okay, cool. Like, in my mind, I was like, you're done, like, moving on.

And he.

He was like, why aren't you talking to me? I was like, you viewed me as a sister. Like, you won't break up with this girl.

Like, I'm not really sure.

Right.

You like my sister.

You're so hot.

You're like my sister.

Right?

Super turned on right now. Yeah.

I was like, so this just isn't gonna work. And so, yeah, it was just like, this back and forth thing, and I was like, dude, grow a pair and cut it off if you want to even have anything to do with me. And so.

So did you do it? Obviously, you cut it off, but, like, did you actually have, like, the we're done speech?

Not really. It kind of blew up. I just kind of waited for the whole thing to implode, and then it imploded. And then. Yeah, yeah, it imploded pretty good. It was a whole thing. I, like, I had a day of decompression, and I went for a hike and shut off my phone.

And his parents thought that.

Well, no, the other girl broke into the house and saw a note from her, and basically they thought that we'd run off to Nevada together or something. So, like, everything was like. It was a whole. It was a whole thing. So I Come back. I come back off the mountain and my phone's like, blown up and I'm like, what's going on? And my parents are at my house. And it was a. Everybody was trying to figure out where.

I was in some kind of forbidden relationship or they just kind of like, how did the. How did this happen?

I don't know. Well, he. He grew up in, like, more like, strict household. Like, he went to Bob Jones University. I don't know if you guys heard of that, but. And so I think that they were just like, oh, my word. Like, y' all ran off together.

Like, who is this girl? Yeah.

So you were.

You were the.

The wild Chick Fil a manager that all the boys wanted. And Ben rolls in. So when do you two, like, start getting serious then?

It was, I guess, like, during that whole thing because we just thought it was, like, comical of, like, that started bringing us together.

And then you got into your accident and I left work for you.

Oh, yeah.

Something that pulled at your heartstrings.

Yeah. And so I was like, oh, he, like, actually cares about me because I got into a wreck.

So.

Like a car accident?

Yeah.

Okay.

Somebody, like, rear ended me. Like a big dump truck rear ended me. So I was like, I don't know what to do. So he's like, I'll leave work and come. And I was like, oh, okay.

So the. The initial emotion starts. How long are you guys dating before you get married?

I was like two, two and two and a half. Almost three years before we got married.

We.

And then we were engaged for almost a year.

Okay. Okay.

How long have you guys been married?

11 years.

Oh, 11 years.

11 years.

You've got the two baby girls. Yes, well, the five year old and the five month year old.

Y.

Nice.

Okay, so the. The gap in between we went from Chick Fil a and that. Were you both at Amazon?

No, I was.

You were just at Amazon.

So I was at Chick fil A for 10 years.

Both 10 years. And then I became a stay at home mom.

When.

When Sophia was born.

Yeah, well, it was like she was like a year when I became a stay at home mom.

Yeah. And you left. And then you were also still with Chick Fil a for marketing For a little bit.

Yeah.

So we all got fired.

Oh, you got fired from Chickfila?

Yeah.

For getting married or what?

No, for my affairs.

Yeah.

Cheating.

Got it.

Okay, so. Because that. And then that wraps up my whole career there with Chick Fil A after all of those.

So they found out about. They found out about Chick Fil A?

Yes, because Chick Fil A is like high. They're like, all morals, values are not open on Sunday. So that's a big deal.

Yeah, because he was the manager. So.

Yeah, so the. We're like shrinking all of it. The like fourth affair was at Chick Fil a with a person at Chick Fil A. And that one came out and basically the operator at that time was, don't again and we'll kind of keep it hush hush. And so everything continued to just operate and kind of exist the same way until the fifth affair. And at that point he was. Hands were tied. He's like, well, you're done. So, yeah, let me go. And then shortly after, I was like, collateral damage, basically.

Got it. So by association I said, you're up.

How.

How many years ago was this?

24. Because I was like, 20. 20. It was like covet time.

Oh, okay, got it.

Okay, so we're gonna pause here. So this. So I sat with a couple on an interview and the story, very similar to Ben's. He was coming into one of our programs here just like three months ago. And she sat through the whole interview with me. I was like, this doesn't typically happen. We don't typically have the wife sit in because he needs to be able to speak openly. And he's like, I can speak openly. She's very open. She wants to be here with me. And I was like, cool, that's great. So we went and he shared his path. And I, at the end of it, I looked at her and I'm gonna ask you the same question. I outlooked her and I said, how are you still with this guy? And she had her answer. What's your answer?

The only reason why I came back is from his change and honestly warrior, because without that, like we would not be together at all. And so yeah, he. I basically left. Like I packed a bag and I was like, I'm done. Like after. After he came out about all the affairs that I didn't know about, he. I like gave him. He was like, I'm gonna change, like all of this. And it was just all. And so after like a year, I was like, I'm done. Like, I'm done. So I like packed up my stuff and at the time, just our one daughter, all of her stuff, and I left. And I had no intentions of coming.

Back and gone for about five months.

Yeah, five months.

Four or five months.

Yeah. And then that's when we had pretty.

Much hardly any contact. I think we. I think I saw Sophia. Twice in the five months.

How old was Sophia at the time?

She was two.

Okay. Did you know about any of the previous affairs, or is this, like, the first time you'd heard?

I'd only known about one.

Okay.

And so we were like. I thought we had worked through that, and then the rest came out, got.

Dropped on your lap. Wow. Yeah.

And it was like. This was like nine months after Sophia was born. So it was like, mixed with, like, I don't know what to do at the moment because I'm like, I have a newborn baby. Baby. Like, you know, where am I going to? I mean, I knew where I was going to go, but I was like, what am I going to do? Like, how can I support myself as a single mom? And so it was just. I stayed there for, you know, a year, and then nothing was changing. And I was like, this is toxic. Like, I can't keep doing this, and I don't want my kids to grow up thinking that this is okay.

Right.

So I left. And then it was, I guess, five months in, and he started. He had kind of reached out in between then saying, like, hey, how are you? But it would not go. Like, I was just like, I'm fine. And then he would. Yeah. Just checking the box. And it was never like, intentional contact. It was more just checking the box. And then it started becoming intentional. And I was like, this is weird. Like, why are you texting me? Why are you trying to call me? Like, what is happening? And I think that's the time around the time that you signed up for Wake Up Warrior Challenge, right?

Or no, no, I was. That was before that. I did wake. I did Wake Up Warrior Challenge when I was finished with the fourth affair and when I was in the fifth affair. So I did. I did Wake Up Warrior Challenge the, like, six months before that.

Okay.

Because it was in November. And then at that time, I went into Shelter and was. I couldn't remember after that, but so I went through and had all of my lies and stuff revealed while I was still being a liar. So there was, you know, the perfect. Just juxtaposition of being in one spot and claiming to tell the truth while still being a liar and still showing up a certain way and acting a certain way. And so really, the biggest difference was after Chick Fil A then went to Amazon for a period of time, got in charge of my schedule more, and that's when I started actually doing the work.

Right.

And that's where. That's where the chain started showing, because I was actually Consistently doing the things that I knew I need to do to switch my mindset. Because I was at a point when we separated, I was in therapy, and I remember looking at my therapist being like, I just. I don't want this. Like, I don't want this marriage. I don't want her and being able to sit with that and just being like, it's not really what I want. And it came down to, really a choice also, of me deciding even if this isn't what I wanted. I've also never given it a fair shot. Like, I never even tried. It was one year in first year of marriage we both viewed as being like, hell, because we had no clue what we were doing. And then from there, it's just affair after affair after affair. And so it ended up being a piece where I'd never given it a shot. So at that point, it was like, well, let me try and let me see what actually happens.

Did having a child make a heavy decision on that? Like, I mean, for Garrett and I, we had a situation. I was nine months pregnant with my second daughter, and he came to me and kind of had, like, an emotional affair with a woman. And it's a very vulnerable space for me to. To be in, like, thinking, well, I've got this kid. Like, what am I gonna do? And I tell Gary this all the time. I'm like, I. If I didn't have my. If I was nine months pregnant, I don't know if I would have stayed.

Yeah.

But in a way, when people are like, oh, don't ever stay in it for the kids. But in a way, you have kids and you owe it a shot.

Right?

Right. And you've never actually. You said it perfectly. Like, you never actually even gave your relationship a fair chance, and now you have a child in the mix.

Talk about that.

Did that really, like, impact your decision at the moment?

No. No, because I didn't care. Like, I was completely just. It was just me in the world. I didn't really give two shits about anybody. My wife, my kids, nothing. So, like, I mean, five months, and I only saw Sophia, like, four days or whatever.

And he didn't care. Yeah.

And I was just completely checked out. I was like, I want to do what I want to do. There was a part of me that was, like, dreaming of, like, well, if she leaves, then I'm off the hook because I don't look the bad guy. Because I didn't leave. She left me.

Right.

So I wanted to play the victim. And that type of story frame and then I also wanted to create whatever life with someone else, like, thinking, like, this would work out better. You know, maybe it didn't work out this way. Maybe I can find someone else and just recreate the same, like, fantasy over and over.

What did you get to, like, what did you figure out for yourself? Because everybody has patterns. Like, I mean, a lot of my tendencies of wanting to run, which was like, a lot of our marriage came down to, like, this brokenness in me from sexual abuse, my uncle disconnection, and, like, constant oppression and religion for my parents. Oppression of sexuality. Like, there was all these things inside of me that had me. Not emotion. I couldn't see it. I think people hear this and, like, the is wrong with you, right? They think, what the, dude? And they're going, how the hell are you still in this relationship? What the is wrong with you? Yeah, but they can say the same thing. I was dating another woman for three months while she's pregnant with our daughter. And they're like, what the is wrong with you? Why would you stay with them? Or, what the was wrong with you? Garrett, Are you out of your mind? But there's this interweaving, which we've really broken through in the last couple years of just finding that there's these. These patterns and triggers of trauma that cause these ridiculous, illogical patterns.

Yeah. And you don't even know why you're doing it. And you have this fantasy of, like, well, if I get a new wife, then I can create the fairy tale, but it's really something inside.

Yeah.

And you have to, like, break that for you.

What did you figure out?

A lot. Probably way too many to fit into this. I know one of the pieces that was interesting that I didn't realize until I went into, like, a sex addiction intensive, because that's one of the things that people thought was wrong with me. And so, like, well, we'll send you to this. Was that everybody that I cheated. Cheated with were all pretty much, like, the same kind of mo. Like, same type of person, same type of look, things like that. So I was able to track that back, actually, to different stuff in, like, high school, like, middle age, of different things that happened with me and another girl that was kind of like that, like, whole fantasy thing, like, this is the connection, and this is everything. And then that was taken away. And so then everything else is kind of like a. Almost like a recreation. Not exactly, but started noticing a lot of similarities. And you're actually the one that pointed out, because I didn't. I didn't see it. And not all the therapists, like, knew, but she knew of different people or how they looked, and she was like, did you realize they all have, like, the same type personality, same look? And so that was a big eye opener piece. And that was. There's a lot that was healed inside of even, like, EMDR therapy for six months. Work, working through different pieces of that.

That's a lot of work as a lot of work on your side.

Yeah.

Like, talk to us about it from your angle, because you can hear. I mean, there's both sides. Danielle didn't really kind of deal with what her feelings were with it until the last, like, two years. And we've been married for 21 years. This happened back in 2010.

Yeah. I think for me, like, I remember when he had kind of told me, it was almost like there was no feeling there. Like, I just felt, like, numb. And I'm like, well, that's a problem that I don't actually care.

Yeah.

Like, I'm. I'm offended. I'm, like, mad. But I'm like, it just is almost like, just if that's going on, then where's our relationship?

Right?

It's like. And so for me, I'm like, huh. Like, I'm, like, shocked, but I don't. I'm not sad. And I was like, I should probably be sad about this, but I'm not. I'm just kind of hurt and scorned.

Yeah, that's. I mean, I remember whenever he came out, that's how I was. I was just kind of, like, numb. I was like, okay. Like, it's shocking, but okay. Like, what do we. Where do we go from here? Type thing. Like, what do I do? So it took me. I had to go to therapy, and I was in therapy for three years just. Just trying to work through, like, different things. Because, I mean, I've talked to him about it.

Of.

I basically didn't recognize who I was because I was, like, trying to figure out, like, how we could fix us. But he was still continuing to cheat. And so I was morphing into, okay, what about if I do this or do this? And when I left, I remember just thinking, I don't even recognize who I was. Like, I don't know what I. Like, I don't know what I dislike. Like, I don't even. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you my interests. I couldn't tell you anything. And so I. Yeah, I had to do a lot of healing and a lot of work and it actually, I tell people it actually helped leaving. Even though it was really hard and I had no intentions of going back, it helped to leave because I feel like I was able to pull away and just basically like, cut it off and was like, we're done. So I need to figure out who I am to be strong for my daughter and to move on. And so I think that was like, the best thing. And just continuing to seek therapy and to just become more close to God and figuring out what was next for me.

Wow, that's powerful.

Yeah.

I mean, Danielle left without leaving, meaning she, during that time, like, we had built everything from 2000 to 2008, then lost everything. Then we're in Gilbert, Arizona in 2010, right after this had happened in 2010 in Utah. We moved to Arizona. Try to get a new start. Because at that time, here's the deal. If she was. If, like, if you take the same situation, goes down now with who you are now, bye, bye. Yeah, fuck you, I'm out of here. Same situation, right? If she's who she is now. And then she went up, goodbye. Right. So, like, we. We sat and I watched her. She just chose herself, just like you were talking about. We lived in the same house. We just focused on our kids, but it was very isolated between us.

Like you said. I love that you're like, I was in this identity, like, trying to please him, not even recognizing who my. Who I was. Right. And ultimately, like, when you're in true. When you're just, like, being yourself, that's what's attractive to other people. So when you can stand in your own power and you're like, no, I have my own purpose, I have my own passions. I. This is me. Then. Then in turn, he's like, oh, there you are.

Right.

You know, and so it's interesting because it's like you have to be able to, like, stand in your own power. And like you said, it was hard to leave, but at some level it woke you up. It's like, what do you want in this relationship? So now if you come back together, it's choice. It's not like, oh, I need you. You've already. You've left him for four months. You know, you're like, I can do this. So it's like, if you get back together, was it almost like, hey, I'm less tolerant of this. I know I can do it on my own. I'm willing to give it another shot, but we're both going to have to do the work.

Yeah.

And that's.

That's what happened is he like, I had to go back because I left during the summer, so I needed to go back to get more clothes, basically. And he just continued to change. And I was like, okay. He asked to give it a shot. So I was like, okay, we can do that. And I.

You kind of had. In your mind, I'll give it a week.

Yeah. I didn't even tell him that. I was just like, okay, sure, I'll come back for a couple of days, basically. And in my mind, I. I thought, I'll give it a week. And he kept changing. And it was. If I. If we ran into an issue and I confronted him because I was thinking, okay, if he's really changed, if I confront him about something, then he's not going to coward back or isolate me or make me feel like shit. And he didn't. And I was like, okay, this is odd.

Who is this?

Like, what is happening? So. And it just continued to build and build. And the connection that was starting to form again was way better. And the trust. I mean, obviously there was a lot of trust that needed to be rebuilt. It took. I don't. It took a year, year and a half for me to truly start trusting him fully again. And even now, there's still times that.

I. I'm like, by the way, that'll probably last for.

It doesn't matter, because you can't like it.

Right.

It's always in the back of our mind, you know? Yeah. It's just. It's. It's human.

Yeah.

I miss that way for Danielle and I. For ever. And then I've done some other stupid. That just like, it wasn't even. It wasn't closer. Just communicating with other women that then triggers this in her again. And now she's like, where are you? What are you doing where you're at? Which I understand, I have empathy towards. I'm like, I did this. Like, I created this. I don't get to be an asshole about it because I created this. You.

You're.

You should feel those things because if the role's reversed, you and I'd be feeling those things.

Right.

So you're making this decision to shift. You're starting to see a newness in yourself. Is it safe to say that you two were actually just two new people?

Yeah, I think, at least for me especially, finding out, like, my likes, dislikes, trying to rebuild my confidence, I feel like I for sure just turned into, like, a different person, more of who I am.

And I think I was more like slowly recreating it was like, piece by piece because there was, like, looking at who I was being, being able to see that doesn't work. That's not helpful. Let me replace that piece and put this piece in. For me, it was more of a very slow recreation. Still ongoing.

Yeah, I did. It was always right.

20 years in 21 years.

I tell him all the time, I'm like, if we can tell if we're disconnected, right? You can just. You can just feel it. So I think for all couples, it's like you just can't let that go too long to where your mind wanders, or you're like, why am I not attracted to my husband? Or whatever it is. And you have to, like, come back and communicate that. Like, that's just how marriage is. It's. There's no such thing as happily ever after. You. It is a constant work. Is your business going to fail if you stop working on it? Yes. And so will your marriage. And so, so many people just jump into marriage thinking it's an afterthought, and they put all their time and attention into your business. And then you're like, well, why do you think your marriage sucks? Why do you think that you want to cheat, right? Because you didn't give it the time and attention to create that chemistry so that you don't have those desires, you know?

And I'm asking this question because we have a lot of couples where it's one way or the other, this has been happening. And the easy part is to say it, I'm out of here. But without healing and fixing and this brokenness inside of us and, like, bringing that about, there's a lot of, like, big name dudes right now that I get pissed off about the idea of healing. They are some of the guys who need the most fucking healing. They're just. It's all bark on the outside because they're just feeling brokenness on the inside. So as you guys take this on, what was the process for you two as a couple to start communicating in a different frame? Like, what. Were there rules that you put down? Was there, like, process that you were using to have conversation, or did you kind of just stumble through the dark and figure it out and that didn't work and try something different? Ben, what do you think?

I was going to say a lot of stumbling through the dark. We tried early on, we tried different couples counselors. We kind of rolled through several of those that didn't do a very good job. And ones I think the. It's one of the turning points, even inside of couples therapy, was starting to realize it was kind of like me having almost like out of body experience, like watching the room and realizing, oh, like what he just said. I can manipulate that, what he just did. I can, I can twist that, I can change that. And so I, I ended up like calling, calling off a couple of the couples therapists we use because I didn't like the doors that were being opened for me to be able to manipulate the way I used to. And seeing that and seeing how easy, how easily pliable some of those people were, I was like, I'm done. We're not, we're not talking to those people anymore. But for us it was, it was stumbling through the dark. It was working through, trying to figure out how to communicate. So as many times our safe spot was the car. Car was like the safe spot. We could actually communicate in the car. I think it's because we both like weren't looking at each other, but we would.

Windshield therapy.

Yeah, we would pull, we would pull, pull. We'd pull into the driveway even after date night and we'd sit in the car, have a great conversation, go in the house, have a fight. And so I was like, well, if we're going to talk hard, yeah, what, do it in the car. And so there's a lot of conversations that we'd have in the car or even sitting in a parking lot some places having a conversation. And she'd bring up different questions or different issues or different things that was still triggering for her. And me being just me learning how to communicate those things or learning how to sit in all of my saying, well, this is what's happened, this is what's going on. This is why I did it. I have no clue why I did this. You know, different aspects like that. Yeah, there's really a lot of stumbling through the dark trying to figure out our communication.

So a lot of the struggle comes down to honesty. Right. We found this with ourselves, we found it with other people, which is like, it's just rough just being honest. Sounds like Charlie woke up.

No, that's ours.

Okay. We got babies in the background. Was like, ah, wait, hold on. Do I recognize that cry? Sometimes our daughter has meltdown at this point in the afternoon, and it's like impossible to solve.

I was like, I'm trying to listen to the tone.

Just put her, put her in the octagon and she'll cry for an hour and then finally work herself out. So honesty is like the foundation. This is like a piece that was missing from us, too, was like, there were levels to honesty. Like, we would be honest with each other, but then there was, like, once you guard your.

You're, like, kind of guarded. You're like, I'm only a share 80% because I don't want to be that vulnerable.

Right.

I mean, like, the truth that when you're sharing it in the moment, you're sharing it, you know, the person you're sharing it with is not going to like to hear it, whether it's likes or dislikes or just. I mean, you two even being this honest this fast into the show.

I know.

I was like, okay, we're going.

I know this is. I mean, we got couples that will be on the show for seven hours, and we couldn't get that level honesty out of them that fast. So, like, as you've gotten to this baseline of honesty for you two in communication, foreign. Let's start here with the princess of power. Talk to us. Like, what. What is. How has this commitment to honesty with him, no matter what, like, at that level, sharing stuff that he may not want to hear about you, stuff that you know is going to trigger him, but you're like, fuck it, I have to go full sin on this. Like, talk about that for a second.

Yeah. I think at this point, it's one of those things that I. I mean, we've just recently talked. We've encountered quite a lot since, you know, having a newborn. But it's one of those things that I know that I need to. In order for us to continue to develop and grow our relationship. Because without it, then it's going to go back to us being disconnected and growing apart, how we were. And so there's been times that I know, I'm like, okay, my feelings in this moment are probably going to trigger him, but here we go. Like, got to go. And they have caused some fights or he's not been able to handle them. And then we have to take, okay, this is where we have our weakness. Let's focus on this. Or over here is where we have our weakness. Let's focus on this so that we can continue to build and grow our relationship and try to just be better and better and better.

And for you.

I think, like, I'm not sure trying to think of, like, where. Ask me the question again.

Wait. When you get to the level, honestly, I'll give you. We've had. We've had conversation with couples where the guy's had an affair and he'll stumble through his words to try to share it like, right? You can just see how. And sometimes we've been mixes. Like, it just kind of. These weren't even with this person. They were just in previous relationships and they're like, I. It's still kind of hard for me to talk about this in front of. It wasn't even with her. It was with somebody else. And he's having a hard time talking about it. So there's a piece of honesty where you start to get not comfortable. You just get to a place of ownership with it, right? It's like, here's what it is. I mean, I did this. This is what it is. These are the facts. I can't run from. I can't hide from them. I can't manipulate it, justify it, reframe it. It's like, here are the facts. I did this. This is where I'm at, right? Like, how did you get to a point where you're able to own it from that position? I mean, dude, part of your entire business brand is the fact with. With raw motivations and what you do in guiding women who are in narcissistic relationships with men like, you were. But when did. When did the moment have a series of moments? What was the time frame that had you just finally get to a place of saying, this is who the fuck I was? I can't hide from it. I'm not only not going to hide from it, I'm a broadcast this truth to the world. All right, so you're a man, you love God, and here you are on the D2I podcast, listening to the conversations Danielle and I have. Listen, we have a men's Bible study, free, available for you, found@warriormensbiblestudy.com this happens every single week with thousands of men from around the world. No strings attached. There's no way for you to buy in. It is absolutely free to get registered and participate with myself and thousands of other men. Starting here this next week, we'll head to Warrior Men's Bible study dot com.

So with that, what I would say is there was a period of time where I had to eradicate all the lies. For me, in my analytical mindset, I remember writing it down on my whiteboard of catch the lies, stop the lies. Like, eradicate the lies. Like, I started putting timeframes on stuff of, okay, if did I lie in the past week? Okay, let me go and apologize and clear that did I lie in the past 24 hours. I had to actually script it out to make sure that I was guiding my brain to rewire itself of. Because it was so habitual, I could.

Lie, like, instantly would be over small stuff. Not even things that you wanted to hide, just.

And you never have a clue.

You're always hiding for so many years, right?

And I. And I got so good at it. And I got so good at it even at a young age, because growing up with my parents, I got to a place where everybody thought that I was the worst liar ever. Like, every time they would catch me in a lie, I'd have, like, a guilty face. So I learned how to play that. I was like, well, let me be guilty on all the lies I don't want to get caught at and give a great straight face the lies that I want to get away with. And it always worked, and it just got better and better as I got. So there's a piece where I had to go through and start, like, analytically trying to get rid of the lies and trying to guide my mindset to it. I remember there was a period of time I was actually. I was sitting in church one time, and for a moment, I just had this moment where I was like, I can't remember any more lies. Like, there's just a moment of. We'd talk through so many. I'd confess so many. I'd walk through so many. And even after that, there was still more lies and more things. There is awkward moments in the car where we drive, and I'd be like, oh, remember we went there? And then be like, oh, yeah, that wasn't with you. Like, just really awkward stuff to have to work through different communication. So for me, honesty is kind of, like, twofold. So the honesty of the past and the honesty of everything happening and then honesty 2.0 of being like. Vulnerability of this is what I'm actually feeling, is what I'm actually thinking. And that's been the hardest one still the hardest one to just be able to open up and be able to share that raw truth every single day.

Does it feel better? I mean, I know for me, and I can't speak for Garrett, but, like, if I'm harboring a secret, it. I, like, almost get, like, physically ill over it. Like, it's something that, like, taunts me. Like, did you get to this place where just sharing felt good and felt freeing to you, or had you gotten so good with, like, the lies? Like, it was almost like you're numb to it.

Numb to it for a very long period of time. And then as I became more and more honest, there was also a fear to it. Like, can she hold this?

Yeah.

Will she stay if she hears the next thing? And that's why when I. When I. After confessing the affairs, then all the stuff after that of getting rid of all the lies, I did the worst way possible. It was kind of like drip truth. It was like, well, let me tell you this. And then she feels better. And then. Oh, yeah. Well, there's this.

But that almost makes it worse because she's like, you just. I thought you told me now there's more.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, he did that. Like, I said, it wasn't the same extent, but it was like, he was like, oh, I'm kind of dating this girl. And then it was like, okay, well, we were dating for three months. Okay, well, I ended up kissing. Like, I was like, oh, my God. It took him a year to fully get the truth out. And I was like, what the.

What, dude?

The first part of the story, I. I played the victim.

Well, he. He made me feel bad. Like, so this is when I know he was caught in a lie, is he put it on me and tried to make me feel bad about it. And I was like. Because that's what master manipulators do.

Right?

But at some level, it's like, we can call out their bullshit and you have to get to this place where you're like, no, like, I'm. I'm not accepting that. Like, I can see your patterns. I can see your bullshit. And now.

Yeah, and that's. That's exactly like, with him. Like, he. There was a point when I was just like, no, there's no more. Like, this is not me. This is you. Like, this is you. You gotta fix you.

And once you came back, you were. You became and you still are extremely comfortable calling out stuff.

Oh, yeah.

I was like, I'll say something like, you're gaslighting me right now. I'm like, oh, okay. Yep, cut, then move on.

Yeah, but it's like you are in that pattern of doing these things, almost like a defense mechanism that you don't even notice you're doing. She can call you out and you like, shit. Okay. Yeah, course. Correct. You know, Very much so.

I was oblivious that how, like, I even operated. They got gaslighting hours. Just reframe everything.

Yeah.

It's like, it's what supported me in selling and marketing.

And that's what's so crazy. This. This thing that could be so successful in one area can be completely destructive inside of your marriage.

Right.

So if you look at this as like, how can I channel this into Business or work and be able to separate it. Not in marriage having this mindset of, like, it's literally. It's like. It's not. I hate the word manipulation, but it's like, you think through problems and, like, can weave around them. That can be very effective in. In business, but also not in a marriage to where it's painful, you know, you're cheating and things like that. So it's understanding. Like, don't shame yourself for your. How your brain is operated, but learn how to point it in the right direction. Same with Garrett. I would tell him all the time, I'm like, I get it. You're a warlord. You always want to, like, blow fire. I'm like, but I'm your wife, and you need to be strategic with your strikes. I'm not your enemy. Like, we don't need to be at war all the time. Sometimes we need to be at war, but not all the time. So I understood, like, even he's a very reactive man. Right. And that could be very painful in our relationship, but it can be very powerful if pointed in the right direction. So I feel like it's almost like the woman's responsibility or my responsibility. I'm like, hey, like, I see this fire. I see this warlord. Like, let's just. Let's channel it this way, right? You know, let's put it. That's what I'm attracted to, but let's get it this way so that I'm not feeling abused and hurt and beaten by something that I'm also attracted to some. This. This. This superpower that I actually like in him. Right. And so I just, like, for me, it's like dancing the line as a woman. You're like, hey, that's okay. That's not okay. You know, and speaking your truth in that way.

Yeah.

So you ready for the next fiery question? Kayla, let's go. So you have this. And I've asked this question of probably now over 50 to 60, 55 different women who have been in situations similar to what you and Ben have been in. And I'm like, okay. So not only we deal with the trust factor, but we're also dealing with sex and the sex factor, like, of. Okay. Which is like, okay, I can spend time with you, but, like, my mind also knows that you were somewhere else for you. How did you work through this? We get this question coming in from women into our support lines at Warrior every week. Like, how am I supposed to ever trust them again? And I'm like, this is past my pay grade. I Don't know. We got to send you some coaches or go to Ben's program and you can work with him a little bit on it, like. But for you, how did you, how did you work through it? When did it, when did it become a thing? Because there's someone we. I talked to where it's like, it's. I kind of wanted it, so it didn't really matter. I was like, I could get over it and someone were like, I know.

Yeah.

It took me like a year to like actually feel comfortable with him again sexually or for some of them, like three or four years and they were having sex. But it was like still very triggering for her. Where were you in that whole process stuff?

I think for me, and we've talked about this, I, I was more hurt by the emotional side of the affairs than the physical side. Yeah, I almost was. Would have rather him just have had like one night stands or like just whatever.

I was telling him this the other day. I'm like, I'm sorry. The emotional piece is far more worse because it's intimate.

Yes. Because at that point, like, sex is more than just sex.

Yeah.

It's like that connection and, and sex. Yeah. Yeah. And so at that point I, Yeah, it took. So it took me a while because I wanted to build that emotional like, connection and have it be more intimate than just sex. Right. So for me, I think, I think we. Whenever it became more of a connection, I feel like is a couple years, I guess it. Yeah. A couple years ago, right before you joined council, I remember. Which was a. About a year. Yeah, yeah. A year after I came back and we had started working on things like we would have sex in between then obviously. But it was not as connected as what we had both wanted it to be.

I feel like I like, I feel like men need more sex than women, but women like, we have to have that connection piece and the men need it too. And so that's when sex is fun, is when the connection's there. Otherwise it's just sex. Yeah. And sometimes when you're married, it is just sex. You're like, we're both fucking tired. We have a new five month old and a five year old tonight.

It's just sex.

And then sometimes it's like, hey. But we also have to keep that connection going because just sex is just sex. Right. And without that connection piece, it's not even the sex almost gets resentful for women. We're just like, oh, you're the man, so you need it. I'll throw You a bone. And so for me, like, when I get in that space, I'm like, oh, hold on. Red flag. Okay, Red flag. Like, why are we not connected to where it can be more than just sex?

What about for you?

I was gonna say, like, a lot of that resonates, obviously right now with a five month old.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Biggest. Biggest blocker in the middle of the bed.

100 toddlers and babies are blockers to the high level. Then my wife gets an idea to get two dogs. It's, you know, addition to the. The blocking of the.

No, I have a little Yorkie that I just got, and every night I have her in bed and he's like.

Get rid of the.

I'm like, let's go, Walker to the basement for you. So when did. When, like, knowing the process you've gone through and knowing she needed time, like, and then obviously, you guys have having sex. You had another baby, right? So, like, where. Where was your patience in this as she's coming to versus being frustrated slash patience? Because I. I'm sure there was both a frustration and a can we like, go, let's go? And also at the same time, like, I kind of get it, but I'm a dude and I kind of need it. And I'm being patient as your husband, but I kind of need it. And I kind of bet this, like, what was going on in your head?

Say, probably a lot of frustration and not much patience.

Patience.

Not a very patient person. I'm still working on that. But that was definitely, probably the most frustrating was just trying to, like, either getting rejected or just being like, okay, screw it. Like, you just do you, I'll do me. Like, forget this. There's. There was many times where it was very frustrating knowing that she needed the space but wanting it to be faster.

Right.

The whole aspect of I confess so we should be better, you know, the next day. Like, just the unrealistic expectations I had in her healing journey that just weren't fair to her a lot of times. But there was a lot of frustrations and a lot of expectations placed on her that I would say it took me a long time to even give that space and still sometimes comes out as frustration and impatient.

I get it. What still does with us?

Well, I was gonna say one of the things I with like, Garrett, I had to work on is like, he'll want to give me his space, but then he goes into shut down business mode, grind mode. So I'm like, you can give me my space, but that doesn't Mean, ignore me.

Right?

You know that. Like, it can't just always be about sex. I'm like, sometimes it is, but I'm like. Because he'll go in like work mode and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, giving me space doesn't mean just you go into work mode. Like, it just means like, I'm not, we're not going to have sex three times a day or even every day at this point. I'm sorry, like my. But I'm, I have a giant belly and I'm tired and I feel sick and like, I'm just going to need you to not. Like whenever I'm pregnant, he always has this thing where he's like, I'm going to give her her space. And it's weird because I actually feel less connected to him. Like, please don't give me my space.

Yes.

Like, please don't like, give me my space, but please don't give me my space. You know, I just think I set up a man. I think that's what men do. So like as, as, as gentle as you want to be with her emotions, you can't like pull yourself too back or she's going to feel like, hello, I need a space, but can you fucking see me right now?

Yeah.

And I think that's been the, the challenge. Like recently we've talked about. Because it's, I mean we've some wake.

Up calls and some conflicts and some pieces that have happened even recently just with the five month old and us trying to readjust and figure that out.

Yeah.

And, and really your, your moment of just waking me up was a couple, not even a month ago really, of just like her frustration of feeling disconnected. And then I'm feeling disconnected and she's just like, I don't know if this is gonna work, you know, if we can't build this connection. And that was a, that was an interesting moment. So it was on the way to church Sunday morning probably about a month ago. And I don't remember how you said it, but it was very clear on the, on the drive to church, she was just like, maybe we should get a divorce. And so I'm just like sitting in church, I'm like, all right, this is different. But that it was an usual piece because you very clearly stated divorce in the car as we're going to church. I'm sitting in church. I just felt so much peace. I was like, that might mean everything that I have implodes. You know, that might mean every piece of the business, every piece of my Life falls apart. And I was okay with it, because I know if that decision is made, it's not because of who I used to be. It's not because of me showing up that way again. And it'd be a choice of. Again, the choice of us being together. Not being together. So it's a very unique piece of feeling peace. And then I also wasn't worried or stressed. I was like, let's get you home, feed you, and get you some sleep. And she's about the next day.

But I was going to say, I feel like the first couple of years of effort after having a baby, like, you can only you.

You.

You're kind of, like, not in your right mind.

Yeah.

So you have to give yourselves as humans a little bit of grace. Like, even Garrett and I got in a fight last week, and we were like. We woke up the next morning and we're like, that is the stupidest fight we've ever been in. And I refuse to give it any more attention. I just chalk it up to, we were being human and we were both tired.

Yeah.

Like, truthfully, and sometimes being married, lack of sleep with toddlers, we're still in the pocket. You have to just say, hey, there's. That was a stupid argument. Of course I don't want to get divorced. I was tired. I was hungry. I'm sorry I even said that my. My. My right mind was not working. Let's give it another shot. Because what happens in relationships, and it happens with us, too, is then we hold these. These words and dangle them over. Our partner said, remember that one time on the way to church? And you said, you want a divorce? And you're like, don't dangle that over my head.

Right.

I. I'm still here with you. I'm still in the fight. So don't dangle that over my head. I just told him, like, last week when I had a fight, I'm like, we need to. Like, we need to just acknowledge we were tired and hungry. Tired and hungry. Mix some alcohol in it. Not a good combination.

Yeah. Because that. We had, like, a counseling appointment that week, and he, like, brought that up. And then we, like, talked through it, and I was like, no, I didn't mean that I want a divorce. I just didn't feel seen, heard and was emotional and tired and was up, like, every two hours. So it's like. Okay. Makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah. We say things we don't mean when we're in a really low state of trying to operate, like, literally on fumes. We're gonna say some dumb.

I think the ability to like, just the capacity we, watching us just expand of being able to acknowledge that, which is like, that's probably why you're at peace. You're like, I'm checking in with myself right now. You're a little crazy and I love you and this you shall pass. So I'm just going to hold steady here and be immovable. And the more I am that with.

Her and we feel safer, the more.

She also feels free to just let out whatever's going on.

And I'm like, yeah, because I know he's not going to run. I'm like, okay, you know what? I just. I'm going to have a little bit of word vomit right now. And I don't even know how to nicely say this right now, but you're being a reactive fucking asshole. That's how it comes out. And I'm like, and I don't. I can't handle it anymore. You know, I'm like, so something needs to shift. And I used to be scared to be that fully honest with Garrett in the sense that he would wall up or run and. But then it would hurt me to where. Then I was withholding and I was like, well, that doesn't help anybody win. And I wish sometimes I was more careful with my words, but sometimes I am not. Sometimes I'm just like, yeah. And I'm like, oh, please don't hang those over my head later. Life just came out that way.

She definitely calls me out because there'd be the. Probably the most moments we have now that are like an easy trigger would be with the kids. Right. Because my frustration. And then she'll call me out and I'll feel shame. Then I just either want to just keep barreling down the same path. That's not going to do any good.

Right.

But I'm like, but I'm right and the five year old's wrong. Right. So I'm in that argument. So that's. That obviously has been a piece. But she's helped with that, you know, being able to call me out. And we've also run into a lot of different triggers in. In understanding how we communicate now and also realizing that there's sometimes that we communicate now. They're triggering from everything that's in the past.

Yeah.

Like there was a time probably about six months ago, maybe, maybe a little bit longer, but she was having really hard time with Sophia, and Sophia was just meltdown city one night and she was, she was getting in your face. I Think she was, like, getting ready, like, hit you or something. But so I was triggered being like, you ain't doing that. And I walked in, and I just. And when that happened, the problem was she didn't see me walk in. And so she. She had her back to me, and Sophia could see me, and I just, like, went off on Sophia and, like, got her to stop, but it triggered her, like, crazy. So she, like, jumped up, like, shove me to the door. Like, got out. She was, like, ready to pack the. Pack the baby.

I was like, I'm done. You do not talk.

We had the newborn.

So.

No, no, that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because she was packed. You're like, I'm putting her in as I was. It was fun. So. So just going through that, realizing that there's different moments, that we're going to communicate in different ways. Because her first thought was like, he's angry and rage. And I'm like, actually don't have rage. Like, I raised my voice, and. And I could see how it's triggering, but in the moment, I was like, I'm good. I'm not mad. I'm just. Her daughter's not gonna do that.

It's interesting. Garrett does the same thing. Like, and it will never stop, too. I'll tell you, with girls, especially my daughters will, like, say something, and then he'll, like, explode at them. And I'm like, well, I didn't want you to do that, like, because they're protecting us. And so I think it's, like, men's reaction to. To want to protect their wives in that way. And. But then we go to. I want to protect my baby. Yeah, right. And so it's almost like we've had. We've had so many conversations where we've.

Had so many fights, so many old ones, literally.

I, like, I had to get to this place where I'm like, garrett, I need you to know I don't need you to save me. So when you want to react and jump in and save me, I got it. If I need you to save me, I will kindly come over. And not kindly. I will come over and say, hey, I need you to talk to Bailey, or, I need you to help here. I said, but what doesn't help is when you come in to try to protect me. It just Then. Now I'm trying to protect my daughter, and it just makes it worse. I'm like, I promise you. And so that was, like, one thing that we. And we're still working on it. Like, I'll be like, There'll be times where I'll be like, garrett, do not talk to Bailey about anything. And he'll be talking to her. I'm like, garrett, I told you, I got this. You don't need to intervene. I got this.

I feel a lot of times like a police officer who gets called to a domestic abuse situation.

Girls.

Officer, you're getting your ass kicked by, you know, your partner. And then here I am trying to help you from the domestic, and then you start attacking me as a police officer, arresting your boyfriend for beating the out of you. Which happens all the time, by the way. Right? All the time in domestic abuse situations where the cops will show up to help the woman who called the for help, and then she freaks out when they're arresting and manhandling her man and starts attacking him. So I was getting in those situations all the time with our teenagers, but when they were younger, like, in their middle school years, and I would be like, how the did this just happen? This wasn't even my fight. I stepped in to protect the queen. Now of a sudden, the queen and the child are stabbing the out of me. I'm like this. Shut the door screaming, you stupid. I'm like, teenagers be screaming at each other. Danielle be screaming, I've gotten better. But I'll walk into the house and go, she's good. And I'll walk right out of the house.

Get to teenagers just wait when their hormones start going, there's times I'm like, I need to go lock myself in my room, like, literally. And then sometimes my two teenagers will be yelling at each other, and I just am, like, staring at them, and I'm like, I could intervene, but that's not going to do anything. I'm just going to grab some popcorn and see when this. I'm going to wait this thing out. Larry, girls are nuts.

Like, yeah.

Especially in their teenage years.

So just be.

Get ready. Okay. So amidst all this we've heard to bring up the conversation of God a few times. How. How do you feel like the city that your relationship or your experience with God has had an impact on just the changes and the transformations occurred for you in the last three years? Kayla, what do you think?

I was gonna say? Which one? Yeah, I think for both of us, our relationship with God has changed immensely, and it's grown in, like, a powerful way and especially on your end. But, yeah, I think just really figuring out who, like, we like who God is and, like, just growing in our relationship with him together and also just, like, separately, I remember really Diving down deep into that. Whenever we were in the thick of it and I had, like, left, I was like, okay, like, why did this happen to me, God? Like, and just figuring out that it's okay to lament and cry out and, like, call to God. Because, you know, a lot of the church is like, okay, well, don't do that. Or, you know, you're supposed to. God gave you this, so, you know, just suck it up and deal with it situation. So just kind of figuring out, you know, where God fit into all of that and coming back together. We've had a lot of powerful conversations just from you sharing stacks and your conversations with God and just pinging things off of like, okay, what do you think about this idea? Or what do you think about this?

Opens up like a deeper level conversation.

Yeah, definitely been some days I freaked you out about talking to yourself. I think for me, inside of the healing space, because I get this question all the time inside the people that I work with of, you know, will God change him? What about all this stuff? And it's always interesting because I'm talking to a bunch of women who've been abused and hurt by the same guy that I used to be, a narcissist. And when they're doing that, they're oftentimes looking for God to come in and save the relationship. Or they'll look at us now and they'll be like, well, why can't my husband change? You changed, right? Why can't this be different? And that's where it gets interesting. So I'll normally first off, start off being like, God isn't a narcissist and he's not going to force you to do shit. So at that point, it all comes down to choice and the willingness. And so it's weird because many people will ask the question of how did God help me, you know, come to realize everything? And I was like, there's a piece of it that. It all just boils down to the fact of being honest. Like, there's no way that God could even connect with me and. And be able to connect, work through, channel through anything like that. Because I was such a liar. Like, there was no ability for me to even know anything about God or who God was. So being able to clear. Clear the pipe of all the shit that I had to be at a place of being honest so I could actually connect and commune with God, that was the biggest piece in my healing. But it wasn't necessarily the start of it. It wasn't like I had to Come to Jesus moment. And I'm like, now I need to change everything because everything that, everything leading up to it hadn't helped, right? Like, I'd been in church since I was two weeks old, right? I'd gone through all different levels of church and Christian. Like my dad was an evangelist, a pastor and a missionary, all three at different times in his career. And so all of that I was fully inundated. Everything I could walk the talk, I could recite the verses, awana, like whatever, you know, all this stuff. But being able to actually connect and commune with God was a whole different piece that I couldn't really tap into because I was a liar for such a long period of time.

I love that you just said I had to clean the pipes in order to hear God. Like how many times can we not directly communicate with God because there's too much noise, there's too much in the way. And it's fun for me, at least in my life, I feel like I can talk to God more when I'm in that space of like listening, right? So I think I just love what you said. You're like, I had to clear the pipes.

Well, you look at tool, I mean, the tool you and I use and the tool that thousands of of our guys use is stacking, prayer, stacking, Bible stacking, rage, stacking, etc, getting to the bottom of the truth. And it's a statement like, I don't know when I started saying it, it was probably about a year and a half ago that where truth is God is, and where God is, transformation is possible. And this one inherent piece is what guys inherently do not get until they get it, which is you can worship all day long, you can go to Bible study, you can do all the right, you can go to therapy. But if you are still full of shit and lying to yourself about where you are, where you've been and what you want, God's talking the whole time, but you're not going to hear anything, right? What role has stacking played in your ability to get to the bottom of truth? Because you are definitely out front as one of the beacons of using the tools not just in your own life, but with your, with your world and your family. But what, what role has that played for you?

As I wouldn't be here without stacking, like right now, I think it's around 2, 500 stacks I've done the past like two years or so. A little bit more than that stacking. Initially, stacking was a piece of checking the box going through the challenge. I have my stacks printed off from like the initial and you can see like one liners. And that's all I wrote. But being able to. The first stacks that I gauge with the most for gratitude. Anti. Anti narcissism, right? Like having to look at everybody else besides myself, having to look outside of me and then stepping into different, various ones of triggering sacks. But then prayer stacking has been the biggest one that I always go back to. No matter what. Stacking started to shift my frame of who I was and also my connection, my community with God. Always grew up praying to God and having that piece of, piece of like talking and then meditation was a piece of listening and hearing. And then stacking really opened up the door of conversing and communication. When I first started doing prayer stacks, I would do. I would write out the prayer stack and then I would read it out as a prayer. And then wow, there's. It was one time that you were talking about the conversation. I was like, it's kind of weird. Let me try it out. Started trying it out and I started realizing that I'd sit in a. In a quiet place, I'd ask question, write an answer, ask a question, write an answer. And then got to a place where I realized the answers that were coming weren't from me because half the time I didn't like them and half the time they're what I need to do. So they started shifting different frames. So I would say a lot of healing really came into meditation and stacking. Sometimes back and forth, have a meditation that would open up a door and then stacking that would step into a different piece. And based on the work that I've done inside of being in therapy four and a half years now, and inside of different, different therapy modalities that I've even studied and worked on, I've been able to actually even take some of those into stacking, which has been probably one of the most beautiful experiences that I've ever been able to have. There's a really amazing practice called IFS internal family Systems where it's talking about like you have different parts of you. So like there's like kind of like inside out, right? Or it talks about like you have like anger, happiness, things like that. And idea is to integrate those into a whole being. But being able to take that and integrate that with Jesus help and with God, bringing it all together and then putting that into a stack. I've done several of those that have been my longest. 13, 14, 18 page stacks that are. They're huge. But there's been so much healing that has come out of this.

I've watched it. I've seen it. I've got to watch your. I've got to watch your husband wake up for two years, like, watched it for my eyes. And you've gotten to see it. The unique piece I get is I don't see him every day. So the contrast every time is this quantum jump every month or every two months. It's like I get to see the change physically. His countenances, power, his certainty, his love. We get to hear how it talks about you and your life and your babies and your family. And I'm showing you as your. As your friend, as your brother, as your mentor. I'm proud of you, deeply proud of you for the work that you're doing, because so few are willing to do what you're doing. And that's why you're called to lead massive movements. I told you this before. What you're doing right now is about closing the door on your past.

Right.

It's healing you completely by healing others who have been wounded the same way you wounded your wife. And when that door closes, the movement you're called to lead will open.

You say it's like closing a cycle.

And I can tell vibration where you two are. That's coming. You mark my words. It's coming. And it's going to be massive. And you're going to be a massive piece of this. We're finding also with the new movement.

Yeah.

The women will probably need coaching.

Well, it's couples.

Yeah.

So as powerful as we are individually and as powerful as you to are individually, God's ushering in a new generation of leadership across the board in every industry where couples, unified in God and unified in each other, are now recalibrating our society to what was originally intended so that the habits and patterns that we're all living in are like. Most of which are bullshit until we let them go and then we're shining a new path.

But, like, even think about it, like, how do you attack the world? You attack couples. You unify couples and you can get them back on track. It changes the world, truthfully. And that's why I believe that there's so many couples, like Garrett said, that are called to be a beacon for other couples. Think about the shit show of, like, how are. Like, my teenagers are being raised now? Like, how do we expect them to have a fighting chance in a healthy relationship and stay married?

Right.

Right. And so now it's like one of those things where if you realize your impact that you can make and you can see yourself to who you're going to become, all of a sudden you're like, oh, that old guy is dead. Because you can see the future version and how big the mission is. It makes this old guy look irrelevant, but part of the process to reach this new level.

And I'm proud of you because you could have run a thousand times and you'd have been justified every single time, but you chose it. And the hell that you've walked through and the hell that you're both walking through is the roots and the foundation that qualify you to stand at the peak. It's not our perfection. We're the least perfect human beings that could walk the planet. Us do. And yet inside of that, it's the progress game that you two are committed to individually and together. And that is the standard. That's the game. That's why I'm saying the new game's coming.

It probably would have been easier for you to lead. You actually chose the harder path.

Yeah. And that's what I tell people. People think that me staying was the easy path. No, it is not. There's a lot of work that has had to happen for us to be where we are today. A lot of challenges, a lot of.

Yeah.

Talks. Everything.

Yeah.

Share what. So we're going to wrap up the show today. Share what you're doing with Raw Motivations and you guys podcast and talk to us for a few minutes about, like, what your stand is right now and what the saying currently is. Although new things are coming for sure.

Right.

But what. What is it right now?

So currently I run Raw motivations, which is working with women who have been in abusive, toxic relationships, kind of giving them the. I guess you say the. The cheat codes or like the inside of the mind of the narcissist, the abusive asshole that they're struggling with, to be able to heal from and through some of the power of being able to combine stacking and the software and being able to help them learn how to rewire the story that they're telling themselves, be able to actually find freedom of choice so they can decide if they want to be in that relationship or not and have clarity in that versus waffling back and forth. Should I stay? Should I go? He's saying he's changing, but he's not changing. So we run a lot of focus towards women that have been in toxic, abusive relationships with, like, narcissistic and to help them actually find confidence, clarity and Certainty in who they are so they can make the decisions. I work with a few. Few guys that reach out. My whole platform is geared towards women and just happened that way. I got on social media and started sharing my truth and more people were like that sounds like my ex. That sounds like the person I'm with. Why? How like just started answering questions and open up the door. Work with a few guys that are the liars, cheaters, abusers and work to bring them to a place of honesty and truth. So currently that's Raw Motivations platform as a whole. So there's the podcast for that and all on social media is all around motivations. And then we have our podcast which is called Trauma Drama in Life. So we figured that'd be the easiest way to group everything. Our. Our crazy life adventure.

The first like couple seasons we got.

Two seasons out right now are mostly.

About our story and just working through some of that. Yep. We're in the process of recording our.

Third which is recording our third season in between the mix of chaotic. So it's actually cool. Right now we're kind of going back to the the OG day. So we're recording a podcast on the road. We're driving car.

Yeah, in the car. So it's windshield and that's more just kind of like there's no script. We just whatever's happened that week, that's what we talk about.

Awesome.

Yeah.

You guys miked up in the car?

Yeah.

Oh, I love it. We've done. I've done a few driving podcasts with people. We both have a mic. We're driving down the road. It's like attached to the steer to the steering wheel for the driver and it's sitting like attached to the dash for me. And we're just talking.

Yeah.

Driving. It's quite fun. Well, social media follow you on Raw motivations.

Yep.

And Kayla's.

Yeah, mine's just. Kayla Taylor. 831. Mine's like a. Yeah.

Okay, we'll. We'll link it. Kayla Taylor.

Yes.

831.

Yes.

Yeah, I only know that cuz I was like looking it up before. Right. So this. You will have a. All the links etc to talk it up. If you happen to be a woman in a situation in a relationship with a man who is a lot like me and Ben. Well guess what? You now have an outlet to check it out at RA Motivations and we're going to bring this show to a close. My wife has. You want to close this out?

Sure. The only thing I ask whenever we do a podcast is share it. We try to share so much value with you guys and hope that it, it, it does something in your life. So what I always ask at the end of every podcast if this resonates with you or you have a friend, friend that's maybe going through something simpler or something similar, Go ahead and share it. And thank you for tuning in every single week. Like I said, Garrett and I run multiple empires, have five babies, and our life is chaotic. But we feel called to do this podcast and it's been very fun hearing other people's stories and offering a place, a safe place where you guys can share your truth. So thank you so much for being so honest and so vulnerable and opening up, because that's our intention in this podcast. Because heart being married, it's not a happily ever after thing. It's hard. And you guys have just shown how even with everything that's gone through, gone on, you're still working through it. You're still in the fight. And that's what's so important in marriage, is to, to stay in the fight. So thank you guys so much for being on today. Again, if you find value in this, share this with your friends. And thank you guys, tuning in every single week to the date you write podcast.