Embracing Tiny Experiments with Neuroscientist Dr. Anne-Laure Le Cunff

Today's guest, Dr. Anne-Laure Le Cunff, has a story to share that I think— scratch that, y'all, I know it is going to resonate with you. Now, despite going to a good school, working at the Google, and doing all the right things, Anne-Laure felt empty. She felt as if she was living someone else's life, someone else's dream, and she decided that, nope, I'm not going to do that anymore. So she followed her lifelong curiosity about the mind and began a neuroscience a PhD, which isn't that what we all do? Yeah, right. Hell no, we don't all do that. So I can't wait to dive in because when she did that, she discovered that success isn't about following a script. It's about experimenting with your interests and using the results as a guide on the path towards your ever-evolving goals. And to me, that is so powerful because these goals are always changing and shifting. So y'all, you are listening to the Glass Ceiling and Sticky Floor Podcast, the podcast that will empower you to shatter limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors to uncover infinite possibilities so you can live your best life. I'm Erica Rooney, and I'm on a mission to bring more women into positions of power and keep them there. I'm obsessed with all things growth and abundance, and I'm here to talk you through the tried and true secrets to get you to level up your career and your life. We talk about the hard stuff here: imposter syndrome, perfectionism, fear, and burnout. So pull up Grab a seat, pop in an earbud, and let's dive in. But Anne-Laure, welcome to the podcast. It is so great to have you.

Thanks so much for having me. What a great introduction. I think this is the best summary of my work I've ever heard.

Well, I love it, but I need to hear this story because you don't just wake up and quit Google and then go get a PhD in neuroscience. So I'm gonna need you to spill those details.

It really all started when I realized while I was at Google that although I loved my work, I loved my team, I was working on exciting projects, I had a sense of emptiness. I was a little bit bored and also burned out at the same time. Bored out and burned out. And the reason why is because it really felt like someone had spoiled the movie for me. I knew already what I was supposed to do in order to be successful. I had an exact script in my mind as to what I was supposed to work on, with whom, and when, so I could climb the ladder and be successful, keep on getting promoted, and having a career that was considered successful based on the criteria that they had at Google. And because of that, I felt like I needed to explore something else. I needed to do something different.

I love that, and I love that you said you feel like somebody spoiled the movie for you because we are all given that exact same roadmap to success. Like, I don't know another person that hasn't gotten that little manual, the playbook, whatever you want to call it, that says go to school, get good grades, check, right? You know, try to get married and have a great relationship and 2.5 babies, check. Do this promotion, that promotion, climb the ladder And all of those things. And you said they spoiled the movie. But here's, here's also where I find the twist with this, Anne-Laure, is that the, the ending isn't what they promised. You know, like, even though you said they spoiled the movie ending, like, I do think that they spoiled it. But I also think that the movie ending I was told I was going to get wasn't the movie ending that I was actually getting. Do you feel the same way?

That's really interesting because I think even more accurately, it's not necessarily that you don't get the ending that you want. It's more that you don't feel the way you thought you would once you get to that ending. And a lot of successful people, they picture in their mind— this is what psychologists actually call the arrival fallacy. They feel like, once I get this, once I'm successful in this very precise, predefined way, then I will be happy. And then two things can happen. Either you don't get there and then you're disappointed. That makes sense, right? But quite often you do get there and still you're disappointed because you realize that all along your happiness was not necessarily tied to this outcome and that getting this result was not the thing that was going to make you feel fulfilled and alive and happy.

So why do you think— well, maybe I should— this is kind of like a two-part thing, but like, why do you think we always tie our happiness to the outcome? And I'll start with that.

This gives us the illusion of control. We feel like if we can define a specific milestone, something to obtain, and then we can kind of define a plan, draw a map in order to get there, then we are in control of our lives. This is a lot more reassuring than the alternative. Which is to accept that the future is uncertain. Very often we have no idea what we're doing. We're figuring it out as we go, and we have to find happiness in the chaos of everyday moments, in the chaos of change, and in that chaos of uncertainty. So this is really about control and more accurately the illusion of control.

Okay, I love that because the second piece of the question that I wanted to ask you was like this how. So now you're kind of leading me to the question of like, how do I let go of that control? Because when you said illusion of control, girl, I wrote it down and I circled it because if that does not show you a picture of who Erica Rooney is trying to control all the things, I don't know what does. So how do we work on shifting that mindset?

It's really about— I love that you say shifting our mindset because this is really what it is about. It's about shifting our mindset from fearing uncertainty to approaching it with curiosity, to seeing doubt as an opportunity for growth and self-discovery. And really, and obviously, you know, I'm a bit biased because this is what I do for a living. I'm a scientist. But this is really about becoming the scientist of your own life, starting approaching those moments of doubt and uncertainty as an opportunity for experimentation, for asking questions, for exploration. Once you start doing this, then you'll open a lot more new doors that will allow you to grow in a way that's more generative and less predictable.

Oh my goodness. And I know a lot of your work centers around inner curiosity. And so I would love to hear your perspective because as kids, we are so curious and I have two myself. They are 6 and 9. And you know, that question of why and how, it will drive my sanity right out the door, right? But I also want to celebrate that for them. But to get back to my question, why do you think our inner curiosity gets quiet as we get older, yet our outside voices are amplified?

Well, think about it. What are you getting paid for at work to provide answers, right? You are paid on, based on your level of expertise. So the more you sound like you know what you're doing, the more you sound like you have certainty, the more likely you are to progress on that career ladder, that traditional career ladder that has very clear steps. In terms of what you're supposed to prove you're able to accomplish in order to get onto the next rung. And so it feels like it's in our interest to express certainty rather than to express curiosity as we grow up as adults. And it starts as early as in school, where if you look again at assessments and the way school works, you are being rewarded for being the one who can answer correctly, not being the annoying kid who keeps raising their hands and asking questions and interrupting the teacher because they want to understand why, why, why.

You know, it's so timely because on the way to carpool this morning with all of the neighborhood kids in the car, they were bickering back and forth about something, and I was like, why do you always need to be right? And it was talking about just this need to be right. And I even said to my son, I said, what does that give you? What does being right give you? Because the reality is the answer is just self-gratification, right? Like, you're just happy that you're right. And I love this mindset shift to stay in the curious, right? And to, to be curious about all the things instead of just demanding to be right. Because we don't live in a black and white world. Like, we live in a world filled with shades of gray. And so I think that inner curiosity, we need to even focus more on amplifying that. Wouldn't you say so?

I'm so glad you're mentioning this because you talked about self-gratification, but I also think that the reason why a lot of people want to be right is because it gives them this false sense of confidence as well. When in reality, true confidence is being able to say, I actually don't know. I don't have enough data to make a decision or to have a strong opinion on this. I don't know, living in this uncertainty, in this state of unknowing actually requires quite a bit of courage.

I would absolutely agree. And especially as, as someone who did climb all the way up to the C-suite, I remember when I first got into those positions, I felt such pressure, whether that was internal or external, really probably a mixture of both to have all of the answers. So with your expertise, what would you say to someone who's like, I really struggle with that because I wanna show up with all of the answers. I wanna be competent and confident. What advice would you give them?

You can actually be perceived as an expert without coming to the table with definitive answers. I think what people appreciate when they work with others is to see that you've been thinking about different possibilities, different contingencies. And so instead of coming to a meeting or a work conversation and saying, hey, here's the solution, you can just shift it a little bit and say, hey, here's the problem we've been facing and here are 3 potential solutions I've been thinking about, but I'm not claiming to have all of the necessary data to make that decision. And this is why we're having this conversation. I wanna brainstorm together. I wanna make this decision together. What do you think?

Well, I love the fact— because you completely just changed, uh, and unlocked like a perspective for me, which is you can be an expert without having all the answers. And I think we often forget that. Like, we expect, if I'm the expert, I do know everything. But there's so much more power in kind of reframing it and stating it the way that you just did. And that kind of leads me to my next question, which I know with your work you talk a lot about replacing that linear success, which is what we talked about first, right? If I do this and then this and I'm following my movie script, you know. So if we're following that linear success, you talk about replacing that with circular growth. First of all, talk to me about what is circular growth, and then how do we go about making that shift from replacing linear success?

The big difference between linear success and circular growth is that for linear success, as you said, you go A, then B, then C, then D, and you kind of rely on having a clearer idea of where you're going in order to grow. With circular growth, you don't necessarily know where you're going, and this is adapted from the experimental cycle in science where You start with observation. You look around you and you're like, what's the status quo? How are things working right now? And then you ask a question, how could things be different? You make a hypothesis, you test it, you collect data, and based on that data, you tweak your approach, which is going to change the status quo. And you can start observing again, what are the effects of those changes that you, you have implemented? And in this way, every time you go around that cycle, You grow, but not in a way that is predictable, not in a way that is linear. And again, that does require the courage to sit in that uncertainty while you grow, because you don't have a clear path in front of you. But when you look back 2 or 3 or 4 years later, you look back on your growth, you'll be surprised as to everything you have accomplished, because there was no way you could have mapped it out in advance.

I almost believe that that makes it possible to grow even more than you would if you were just taking these, you know, linear steps from A all the way to Z. Whereas when I'm thinking about this growth, I'm seeing the circle just expand and expand over time, and it's almost like you can't even predict those growth jumps that you're able to make when you look at it through that lens. Do you find that people are able to, you know, I don't want to say grow more, but maybe just like lean into that growth in a different way when they're going more in that, you know, cyclical, circlical, I don't know the right word, route. You get my drift. Yeah.

If by growing you mean exploring things, accomplishing things, learning things that they would have not been able to imagined they were capable of in the first place, then absolutely. Because if you have this circular approach to growth, every time you go around and you complete a cycle, you will reimagine what's possible for you based on the current data. Whereas with a linear approach, you can only do what you're capable of imagining right now. And I really want to encourage anyone listening to this and just thinking about what you thought you were capable of maybe 10 years ago versus where you are today. Chances are there are a lot of things you can do today and things you have accomplished that would've been impossible for you to just imagine were in the realm of possibility for you. If you apply in a more systematic manner, this circular, um, model of growth, then you will just have more of these things in your life, more of these things in your career. This is really what it's designed for. It's really made for leveraging your curiosity on an everyday basis so you can look back in a few years and feel like, wow, there was no way I could have imagined that I would be here today.

Well, that is so powerful, and I'm a big fan of, like, looking back at the breadcrumbs because success leaves clues, and I think that it can be so hard to see how much you've grown and how far you've come when you're only sitting in that moment, right? But when you take that time, as you said, to reflect back on where were you 10 years ago, where were you 5 years ago— I mean, I'll tell you, I wouldn't be in this seat talking to you today, having a book, having a podcast, being an entrepreneur. 5 years ago, that would have never entered my imagination. And that's why I think it's so important to kind of bring it back to what you said at the beginning, is these ever-changing goals. And I want to offer this to anyone who's listening because this has been a game changer for me. Is, you know that quote like, well, I'll believe it when I see it? Yes. Basically telling me you don't believe it, right? But I'll believe it, then I'll see it. So like, if you can envision it in your brain, then you can make it happen. And it always makes me think about, um, the, the brothers who invented the airplane. Like, people must have thought they were bananas. You want to get into a motorized object in the air? Like, you're crazy right now. Could you imagine not having an airplane? And it's like, so you have to really get it, get into that curiosity mindset, the inventor-like mindset to really expand on what's possible. Yeah.

And, uh, in the case of the airplane, it ended up working out, which is great. Right. But another thing that's important when you start having this more experimental mindset is to know that there is really no such thing as failure anymore because the goal is not to get to a specific milestone anymore. The goal is to learn something new. And so in the case of the airplane, that worked out, right? But if they had tried everything, they completed the experimental cycle, that didn't work out, then they would know and they would try something different. And, you know, we would have maybe another way of flying that is not what it looks like today. But there's no way for you to make that kind of progress if you don't give it a try. So each cycle, even if the outcome is, huh, that didn't work out, or maybe I don't like that, I'm not sure this career path is for me, or I'm not sure I want to work on these kind of projects, that's fine. You learn something. There's no such thing as failure when you're collecting data that you can use for your next experimental cycle.

Y'all, that is like huge, is all of these experimental cycles. And this leads me to also something I really want to talk about, which, y'all, Dr. Anne-Laure has a book coming out. It's going to be coming out in March, so get your Amazons up, get that pre-order button ready to click, because you're going to want this book to land in your hands the day it comes out. And this is a book that's called Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal- World. And y'all, you know I'm goal obsessed, so I cannot wait to get my hands on this book. But Dr. Anne-Laure, please tell me, what is this book about?

It's about a lot of the things that we've talked about together today. It's really about having a more experimental mindset. I wrote this for myself first and for everybody who's like me, like you, and like I'm sure many people who are listening to this today, people who are highly ambitious and highly curious and who feel like there might be something more out there, but who don't necessarily have the right tools in order to explore those different possibilities because so far they have been relying on the more linear model of success. So I'm providing alternative tools that are based on science, but that are not complicated or anything like that. There's no jargon. It's very simple tools that you can apply on an everyday basis at work and in your life to experiment with where you want to go, what you want to do, and who you want to become.

Mm. And y'all, here's why you need to preorder this book, because when you preorder it, you guys, she has a tiny experiments workshop. She's got a productive, a mindful productivity guide written by herself, which y'all remember, she's a neuroscientist. So it's going to be good. She's got a book, a behind-the-book exclusive video walkthrough, also 9 life-changing tiny experiments. So I am going to challenge all of you today to go ahead and preorder the book and we can all walk through these life-changing tiny experiments together. Anne, when you wrote this book, who did you write it for?

For my younger self, really, for the person who thought that she had to stay at Google in order to be successful. And, uh, for anyone really who's like her today and who wants to explore other possibilities. And again, I just want to say that if after conducting some tiny experiments, the answer is that you do want to stay in that big corporate job, that's great too. This is all about being more experimental, being more intentional. So then you know that where you want to go is actually where you want to go.

Oh, I love that because I mean, this is a very like— for me, this is like therapy for me, y'all, because as you know, I recently left corporate and I'm all on my own and I've got my book and all of these things, and there's a lot of unknown, right? There is. I am all up in that life of uncertainty right now. But the cool thing about uncertainty, y'all, is when you are in uncertainty, you are also at the doorstep of infinite possibility. And so you can go anywhere, do anything, you know, the future is yours. And Dr. Anne-Laure's book really kind of ties a lot of that in because guess what, y'all, if all of this fails, if my book flops, if I decide, oh my God, I can never be an entrepreneur again, guess what? Maybe I go back to corporate. Who knows? Who cares? Guess what, y'all, that ain't going to happen. I'm going to be the next Mel Robbins, but I'm just saying, okay. And what I love about her book is she really leans into getting comfortable with ambiguity, even though your brain is screaming for certainty. And that is definitely an area I struggle with. So, Dr. Anne-Laure, what would you say— what would you say would be the number one thing that someone should do when they really struggle with uncertainty? How can they get comfortable stepping into that?

The number one thing you can do when you're feeling anxious because things are a little bit uncertain is to stop trying to find a solution for a second, which I know can be hard for problem solvers and people who like getting things done. Just pause and put yourself in a place of observation. I like to call this self-anthropology because the idea is to become an anthropologist of your own life. And just like an anthropologist goes to a different place and studies a different culture and asks, why are they doing things the way they're doing them? Or why are they worried about this? Why do they talk about this thing so much? You can do the same thing with your own life, with your worries, with the things that you keep on thinking about without any self-judgment, just a neutral observer. Looking at what's going on and asking, hey, why is it we're so worried about this? And when you do that, you just give yourself and your brain a little bit of breathing space so you can figure out what you want to do next, not based on the anxiety, but based on your curiosity.

Okay, y'all, we are replacing judgment with curiosity. That is this week's assignment. It's a big one. So you can have all week to do it. Oh my gosh. Okay. This is the one question I love to ask every single person that is on my show. It's what I end with, and I am so curious for your answer, but if you could go back in time to being a Googler, right? Having all of the outward success, doing all of the things, checking all the boxes, but feeling just so defeated inside. So bored out, burned out, all the things, as you said, what piece of advice would you give that Anne-Laure?

Today? Reach out for help because I thought, and especially being a woman in the corporate world at the time in tech where there were not that many of us on my team, I just felt like I had to look like I got it all figured out. And so instead of raising my hand and saying, hey, I think I'm struggling a little bit here, I would just try to fix everything on my own. And I actually had amazing colleagues who I know would have been able to help me at the time, but I felt like it would have been a sign of weakness if I did that. So this is not a big piece of advice or saying that that's the decision I should have made at the time, but more on an everyday basis, just asking for help because I think a lot of people around us do want to help us if we let them know that we need the help.

They do. That is also a sticky floor of mine, y'all, is asking for help. And so I have to constantly lean into what I like to call my zone of discomfort, which is asking for help, because the magic about your discomfort zone is it gets smaller the more you lean into it, and your comfort zone expands. Oh my gosh, Dr. Anne-Laure, this is amazing. I cannot wait to get my hands on your book. So if people want to work with you, if they want to grab the book, number one, I'm going to put all the links in the show notes, but tell me, how can they get in touch with you?

So my website is nestlabs.com. I have a newsletter that I send every week about a lot of the topics that we talked about today. And to preorder the book, you need to go to tinyexperiments.org.

Yay. All right. Thank you so much. It was amazing. I cannot wait to get my hands on this book. If you are listening, You're going to have to hit me up, tell me what you think about it, tell me what tiny experiment you're choosing today. But Dr. Anne-Laure, thank you so much.

Thanks so much, Erika.

Oh my gosh, what an incredible conversation that was with Dr. Anne-Laure today. Now, if there's one thing that I hope that you take away from this episode, it's this, that your path to success does not have to follow someone else's script. Y'all, life is about curiosity. It's about growth. And it is about those tiny experiences. It is about those tiny experiments that open the door to infinite possibilities. And here's your challenge for the week. What is one tiny experiment that you can try today? Maybe it's asking a new question. Maybe it's exploring a different path or simply pausing to reflect, but whatever it is, I want you to do it. You might just surprise yourself. But if you loved this episode, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe as it really does help it land in the hands of the person that needs to hear it most. And don't forget to go out there and grab Dr. Anne-Laure's book today. It's called Tiny Experiments. Pre-order that sucker so that you have it in your hand on the day that it goes live. But all of the links are in the show notes. And as always, y'all, remember the only ceilings that exist are the ones we place over ourselves. Let's smash through them together.