Mindframing and writing for personal growth with Anne-Laure Le Cunff

I think this is why writing is so important in this approach, because it's actually one of the very few things that you can do that will put you in both thinking and creative mode, which is great.

Welcome to Latitude, the show for freelancers, founders, and creators about all of the non-business parts of running a successful business. I interview folks who are defining work for themselves. We look at the mindset and methods it takes to create the latitude you need to do your most creative work. This week I'm talking with Anne-Laure Le Cunff. Anne-Laure has previously spent time as a marketing lead at Google and published a book on branding for indie makers. She's currently studying neuroscience at King's College London, which informs a lot of her work as an entrepreneur. Because of that, today's interview is a little different. We spend the majority of it diving really deeply into the productivity framework she created called Mindframing. This concept of mindframing basically takes a lot of the productivity and personal growth research and brings it into the world of business and entrepreneurship. Writing is a big part of how she developed the mindframing framework, so we talk a bit about that as well. Because of how focused this particular interview is, we don't go too deeply into her background or some of the other topics she writes about. But if you're interested in that, I've included a link to the Bright and Early podcast where Brian Ray chats with her about a wider set of topics. There's a good chance that you're like me and listen to a lot of these shows at 1.5 or 2x speed, but this is one where I really think it makes sense to listen at regular speed. A lot of it is worth a second thought, and it's just a little harder to do that at 2x.

Yeah, so really excited to talk to you today, Anne-Laure Le Cunff. Looking forward to really kind of dive deeply into the concept or framework that you created around mindframing. It seems like kind of a way for folks that are kind of building their own businesses or kind of doing their own creative work to think about that work. So I'm curious, basically, what would you say kind of your like couple sentence description of like what is Mindframing?

Yeah, sure. Um, that like first, yeah, thanks for, for having me. And, um, yeah, Mindframing. So it's basically a productivity method that I designed for makers to get stuff done. Without losing their sanity. So it's, we can talk a bit more about it later, but it's about shaping your mindframes to achieve your goals. And it's basically based on the fact that we usually see our mindframes are fixed, and mindframing is about changing that. So it's about activity shaping your mindframes, basically, so you can achieve your goals.

And so I know you kind of have a background in like, both working full-time and you're currently doing a neuroscience course. And I think some of that stuff has kind of all come together into this concept of mindframing. So I'm curious, kind of with like your own personal journey, how do you see kind of the start of that concept? Like, how did you kind of start thinking about it?

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's exactly what you said. I'm both an entrepreneur and a neuroscience student. So I get to read a lot of papers on a daily basis. And, you know, as I, as I started to study how the brain works, how we learn and, you know, all of this kind of stuff, I started seeing interesting patterns and connections with the way I worked. So I also get asked a lot about how I managed to write and manage a business and study at the same time. So, I basically decided to create a proper framework to capture this and share it with other makers.

Okay. Yeah. And I think we'll definitely kind of dive into some of the writing and going to school and creating and all of that stuff in a little bit. Um, cause I'm definitely interested to talk about that. So is that, so it kind of sounds like it's something that you've pulled from like different aspects of your life and it kind of came together over time. Is that accurate?

Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

And so I guess to kind of go back to like the very start of that, maybe like you didn't even have the concept of mindframing, but you were kind of starting to think about like some of these like learning models and productivity things. Take me back to kind of like that beginning stages of it.

Yeah, I basically started with like thinking about our mindframes. It's very interesting. So basically like a mindframe is a set of beliefs that you have about the world and about yourself. So for example, thinking, I can learn anything I want, or I have a fixed set of skills. These are two sides of the same mind frame. Or I can decide to work on whatever I want to versus, let's say, I will work on whatever my company needs me to work on. So these are all different sides of the same mind frames. And lots of people see these as fixed, as, you know, just something that you kind of have to cope with. And this is how it, like, I got started thinking about mindframing. I was just thinking, how can you turn this kind of like passive outlook on mindframes into something a bit more active? How can you shape these so you can actually do the stuff that you want to do?

Okay. And so, um, then I think a lot of folks are probably familiar with the concept concept of mental models, which I know you've also kind of written a little bit about. How would you kind of compare a mind frame to a mental model?

I think a mental model is a bit more about— it includes lots of mental models, include also things about how the world works. So it's a bit larger and it's also a little bit more fixed. So it's really about having mental models to know how to react or how to act in certain situations or when you're feeling a way, or actually when you have certain mindframes yourself. So they're more of a set of tools that you can use to guide the way you think and the way you behave on a daily basis. Whereas your mindframes are more, you know, your beliefs and your values and what you believe about yourself and how the world works in general.

Okay. So it's almost kind of like a step up in abstraction, whereas I guess a mental model is like a little more of a concrete way of thinking.

Yeah, exactly.

And then kind of in your own personal life, in your own kind of like exploration of mindframing, are there kind of like, would you say that there are like projects that you've been able to get done through this process or like kind of what has been the benefits that you've seen of thinking about things this way?

Yeah, I've used it for a few things. To me, mindframing works a little bit more for long-term projects where it can seem a little bit hard to, you know, see when you're going to be done with it. Like it's not necessarily a fixed project. So for example, in my case, I used it to learn how to code. Because again, like, it's not like there's a perfect plan to learn how to code and it's really more about showing up and doing a little bit of it every day. But it's also about believing at a deeper level that you can actually do it. So I learned it to learn how to code, and I also use it every day to manage and maintain and grow my blog, writing every day and, you know, learning about writing in itself and believing that this is something that I can become really good at if I keep on working on it.

And so, I mean, it seems like writing in general has kind of been pretty fundamental, both in like you're growing your blog and then also kind of like being able to think about these things in like a more clear way. I'm interested if you could just kind of comment on that. I'll just leave it kind of like open-ended.

Yeah, it's interesting because I, when I was a kid, I kind of wanted to become a writer and that didn't happen in the kind of like more official sense of the term that I had in mind when I was a kid, but I've always loved writing. And I see both as a way, obviously, to share my ideas with the world, but at a more fundamental level, I see it as a way to grow and as a way to learn. It's really a good way for me to crystallize what I think about and how I think about it. And And I think lots of people have experienced this, but, you know, I feel like if I can't write about a topic, it's probably that I haven't really mastered it yet. So I really see it as a great learning tool. And so I use it as part of my framing, but I also use it just for myself too. Can be, you know, journaling or just, you know, even writing tweets, like short tweets and trying to condense your your thoughts in this tiny little box. So yeah, I use writing in lots of different aspects of my life, and it has been definitely fundamental in my work and even my just like mental well-being in general.

And I guess so for me, like I wrote a lot when I was in school, obviously. And I mean, I still kind of see writing as like a great form of communication, and especially for folks that are working remotely and things like that. But at least for me, I find it really hard to kind of create specifically on that weekly cycle, specifically with writing versus other things. Like if I'm designing or even creating this podcast or something like that, I find that a little easier than writing. So what would you kind of advise someone like me that doesn't really kind of enjoy writing?

Yeah, I think to me it's really about lowering the bar, having less pressure in terms of good writing, because it's really hard to, to recognize good writing even when you see it. And I think lots of people are a bit paralyzed when it comes to writing because they're taking it a little bit too seriously. So to me, I think, you know, the key to be able to write more regularly is to not necessarily think about the outcome and how people are going to, you know, judge it or what they're going to think about it, but really try and kind of fall in love with the process of it. And I think once you're done writing something about a topic that you're interested in, you do have this sense of pride. It's a bit like, especially if you're someone who's a creative or a maker or someone who just likes creating new stuff, it's, it's really easy to find joy in writing once you stop seeing this as something that has to be absolutely perfect before you can put it out in the world.

Totally.

I mean, I think that makes perfect sense. And that's like definitely something I've been working on is I have the tendency to kind of like, edit pretty intensely, like, as I'm writing, versus kind of like being able to separate that writing process and that editing process. I think it can kind of like get yourself out of your own head as you are like going through the more kind of like open-ended creative process before you even need to really think about it.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. This is great. Like, writing just like getting in some more of a flow state and just writing whatever is going on in your mind is, is just a great feeling, I think.

Well, and I guess that's like another thing too that like I have found easier is like if I am just kind of like writing anything, something that like I know that I'm not going to share, it kind of takes the pressure off. And then even like sometimes you'll find like, oh, that is something that like I can share after the fact. But like when you're not thinking about it that way as you're creating it, I think it can kind of—

Definitely. No, that can be a really good way to approach it. Not think about publishing it and just write for the sake of writing.

Now, before we jump into the next question, I want to pause for a minute and talk a bit about Podia. Podia is a platform for creating and hosting online courses, digital downloads, and memberships. More than that though, Podia is a company that believes in and supports creators. They don't just build course software, they really enable people like us to do the work we love. I'm a longtime Podia user along with a few of the guests on the show. My Podia course has directly led to thousands of email subscribers and 5 figures in revenue. As a designer, I definitely have a tendency of tweaking and perfecting everything, but most of the time that's not what actually makes a difference. Podia makes it easy to focus on creating content that's useful and valuable rather than getting distracted by design edits or a long technical setup process. It doesn't matter if you're an expert developer or creating your first ever digital product, Podia makes it fast and easy to create something that not only looks good but converts well. If you're listening to this podcast, you're probably working on creating something. Whether that's an app, a course, or an entirely new business, Creating something out of nothing is hard, but Podia makes creation a little bit easier. They're offering 15% off for life to listeners of the Latitude Podcast. To get your discount or to just learn a bit more, go to podia.com/latitude, or there's a link in the show notes. All right, let's get back to the interview.

And so I guess to kind of move back to the mind framing stuff, but I did kind of want to talk about writing because I do think they are connected. And I guess there are like lots of other, I guess, kind of productivity frameworks that folks in kind of makers and creators are probably familiar with. Getting Things Done probably being one of the largest. How would you kind of compare mindframing to like something like that?

Yeah, it's interesting because I do get this question quite often, and it's a very fair question. So, it's not like I've studied all of the productivity frameworks out there, but the Getting Things Done one in general comes up quite often. And I think it's quite different in the sense that, so, it has 5 steps, which are capture, clarify, organize, reflect, and engage, I think. And what I find really interesting, especially for a framework that's called Getting Things Done, is that only the last step is about doing stuff. So, you have 4 steps that are about planning and only 1 step that's actually about getting things done. And yeah, it's kind of ironic when you think about it. But so, the mindframing approach is all about actually doing stuff. So, there's only just 1 step that's about committing to do the thing and then you just get on with it. So that's how I see it as different from some of the other productivity frameworks that I've seen out there. It's less about planning and more about doing.

Okay. And so you have kind of like a 4-step process that goes into that. Do you want to kind of share a bit more about that?

Yeah, for sure. Um, so there are 4 steps, uh, which spell out PARI. P-A-R-I. And so the first one is Pact. So you basically commit to doing the thing. And you can do that either, you know, privately for yourself, or even better, I think, is to do it in public. So you're just committing to do that thing. Then the second part is acting on it. So you study, you learn new things, you practice. The third step is to react to what you learn. So instead of just like being passive and just learning, you create your own version of what you learn. So you could write a blog post or record a vlog, whatever format works best for you. But it's really all about formulating what you learned in your own words. And then the last one is to start working on something that has a bigger impact. So for example, if you're learning how to code, This could be building a larger web application, or if you're learning design, you could create your first pack of illustrations or something like that. So it's something ideally that you find both super challenging and fulfilling and that uses everything that you've studied before and puts it into practice. So these are the 4 steps: Pact, Act, React, and Impact.

Great. So, and I think that like, something I'm definitely guilty of and probably like lots of others are at some time is it's so easy to just kind of like learn things or like watch videos. And so I guess that would probably be like the act stage and then go back to the beginning and kind of learn something else. And so it sounds like you're really pushing people to like think about that after the fact and then also kind of create something from it. So maybe you can kind of dive more into the React and Impact side of things.

Yeah, it's, uh, that's what's really interesting is that I think there's no shortage of content and tutorials and online courses to learn new stuff. The problem is that lots of people, they kind of like just sit down and watch it and expect to learn this way. And, um, there's something called the generation effect, which a lot of the mindframing method is based on. Which basically shows that we learn much better when we actually generate our own version of what we study. And so this is why the, the act part of it, if it's just like listening to stuff or watching videos, etc., wouldn't work without the react and impact stages. So building those projects and, you know, writing your own version of what you studied are really a way to solidify everything that you studied inside your brain. And it's also a great way to get feedback from people because it means that, you know, it's not only about creating your own version or working your project. It's super important that you actually share it with the world and you put it out there. And especially if you're a self-learner and you're not doing this at school, and this is what mainframing is about, you're basically effectively creating your own personal classroom with lots of other people who are studying other topics on the same topic on the internet.

And so I think that's like something that's kind of interesting about this framework as a whole is like, it sounds like it kind of started like initially from a blog post and then it kind of evolved into like a research paper and now it's kind of evolving into course. So I'm interested, how has that kind of like feedback and involvement from others led to kind of that evolution?

Yeah, it's actually kind of meta because I'm using mindframing to create the mindframing method. So it's, it's quite interesting. So yeah, it started with the blog post, which I published on my website, and it's actually one of my most popular ones. I've had a few articles that went viral on Hacker News or stuff like that. And so you can see a peak in terms of number of visits, but this one is just slow and steady and getting, you know, regular visits every day. And I've had lots of people specifically emailing me about it and asking about how they could actually apply it for their own projects. So this is also why I decided to write the research paper because I wanted to make sure that at first this framework I created for myself, and if I was to teach it to other people, I really wanted to make sure that the science behind it was sound. So that research paper was kind of like my react or slash impact part of, on the act of learning all about personal growth, basically. And you know, proving to myself that I could actually write a research paper about it and also doing all of the research that was needed to write this was a great way to confirm that there was actually enough science to it and that that wasn't bullshit and that it was worth teaching to other people. So this is also why now I'm turning this into a more practical course because the paper is very theoretical. And again, I really think that this is a framework that's all about doing and making stuff. So I want to create a more actionable version of it.

Great.

And I, and I think that's like so interesting how some of the kind of neuroscience and some of the research stuff that has kind of, from my perspective at least, been like the way you target like most of your writing from this kind of like research-based approach. And I'm interested. How did it kind of come to be that you like combined the maker and entrepreneur side of things with the more kind of research side of things? Or did that just kind of happen naturally from you being involved in both of those?

I think it's, uh, once I started my master's in neuroscience, I got really used to writing research-backed articles for school. It almost felt strange afterwards writing stuff without backing it with the source or the science behind it. I almost became uncomfortable claiming stuff without giving the opportunity for the reader to go check for themselves if it was true or not, if there was actually a study behind it. And so it kind of came naturally in that sense that once I started writing science papers for, for school, it felt really awkward for me to write any kind of article without backing my things with with science. So this is what happened.

And then kind of going back to how the goal of the course is to kind of make some of this more like research-based approach a little more actionable. What have you found to be like the most effective ways to do that?

So I'm still in the middle of building the course and it's actually very challenging because I really want to avoid building something where people just watch videos and that's it. So I'm trying to make it actionable by literally giving homework to people, things to do and start doing stuff straight away. So instead of having, which is the case with lots of courses where it's like, do the whole course and then go and apply it. I really want each video to finish with some action items, something that people can act on straight away so they can start applying the framework as they go rather than waiting for the end of the course. And I am currently testing different ways of doing this, but that's definitely the most challenging part in building an online course to make sure that people actually apply what you're telling them about.

Totally. And I mean, I'll like kind of mirror that as well because I, I have an online course and it like has gotten quite a few signups and I've gotten some good feedback on it. But it's like so hard to kind of attach it to, to attach it to outcomes, I guess. And like, even like the course, it's kind of a design course. And so there is like, there's files and there's like steps that people are taking every step of the way. And I think people are like kind of learning a lot of the concepts, but it's been hard to see kind of like how it gets applied after the course too. So. I think it's interesting that you're kind of really thinking about both, because that's definitely something that I've spent a lot of time thinking about as well.

Totally. It's, yeah, it's pretty hard. This is also why I think, again, that's something that comes from a more research-based approach. But I think that for my course, for example, I'll probably have an entry and an exit survey, and that will help me measure the impact that the course had on people and the progress that they had. So this is, for example, also something I'm thinking about doing.

Awesome.

And I mean, I think too, I've definitely found like folks that I'm kind of like talking to more regularly, kind of back and forth, are the folks that are gonna kind of be like more likely to follow through with it. So I think there's definitely kind of like an in-between model too of like something that's completely one-on-one versus something that's like just videos.

Totally. Yeah, I totally agree with you.

So yeah, just kind of something to think about. But I guess jumping back to kind of the PARI aspect of mindframing, there's kind of one particular question I had about that, that I was kind of interested in. And going back to like Getting Things Done is like super heavy on like the weekly review process. And so I'm curious if this PACT, ACT, REACT, and IMPACT if that kind of fits into certain timescales or if that's kind of like flexible from person to person and project to project?

It's pretty flexible, but in the way I have been applying myself, there's definitely a bit of a daily, weekly, uh, you know, monthly kind of, uh, different timescales to it. So as I said before, the Peri approach works better for long-term goals. So, you know, learning how to code, growing a blog or newsletter, learning how to design illustrations, that kind of stuff. So you start with like, with making this pact with yourself. And as I said, it's even better if you do it in public, but that's just a commitment. So, you know, you just do it once basically. And then the act part would be daily, ideally. So you would study and practicing. And the React part I would see on more of a weekly basis because that would be probably too much work to try and create your own version of what you learn every day and probably wouldn't make sense. So maybe, you know, having a weekly blog, for example, where you synthesize what you learned during that week or you produce, you know, your own content. And then lastly, ideally within a few months, you should be able to start working on something that has a bigger impact. So yeah, in terms of time scales, this is how I've been applying it, but I think it's flexible enough that you can be able to play with it and adapt it to whatever it is that you're learning.

That's really interesting. And I mean, I think it's like going back to what we were talking about, about kind of the learning process. Sometimes taking like too much of the overall kind of like synthesis of and like actually like gaining knowledge rather than just kind of watching videos. Like ACT is obviously one of four things, but it sounds like even kind of with the amount of time you're spending on that React and Impact part of things, the actual kind of like watching videos or kind of like the more structured learning process is even arguably quite a bit less than just like one quarter of the overall system.

Yes, definitely. I, we, you definitely learn more and better and faster if you're in a creative process, which is then rather than just absorbing content and you will remember it better, you'll be able to use it better. And also, you know, in the react stage, Making the effort to try to explaining, to explain it to other people is a great way to make sure that you actually understand the concepts that you've been studying.

And so then I think kind of like one of the challenges there is being like self-aware enough to even be able to step outside of that and be like, okay, I need to actually kind of like apply this now. And so I know kind of the other part of the sort of mind pro— mindframing process kind of talks a bit about that. So maybe you can kind of talk about the mindset aspect of it.

This is also, yeah, this is also why it's called mindframing because you do need to have the right mindframes in order to apply this framework. And so, you know, talks about the, basically the mindframes that you need are a growth mindset and metacognition and self-authorship. So the growth mindset is the idea that you think that you can basically do anything you want, accomplish anything you want if you work hard enough. So instead of seeing your abilities as fixed, you see them as basically flexible and that can be grown. So it also means that you're seeing any challenges or obstacles or mistakes as an opportunity for growth. And I think that's super important because mindframing is an iterative process. So you need to believe that the harder you work and the more consistently you do it, the better you're going to become at whatever you're trying to master. The other one is metacognition. And you mentioned it a little bit in your question, because it is really about taking a step back and really think about how you think, which we talked about writing earlier. Writing helps a lot with that because you need to think about your own cognition to be able to write down your thoughts basically. And the last one is self-authorship. And it's also basically the belief that you can be the author of your own life, that you can have your own beliefs and your own values, and that you can create your own authority outside of the, you know, maybe the social pressure that you would get, the external pressure that you would get. And these 3 mindframes are super important in order to kind of like trust the process and stick to it and keep on working every day, even when sometimes the progress is not as visible as you would want it to be.

And so, I mean, I think for myself, like, I definitely consider myself someone to have a growth mindset. And I think most people that are kind of like building their own products or businesses or things like that, that's true for them as well. But kind of one challenge that I've faced is like, I know there are things that I like pick up easier versus things that like are more challenging, but like, of course I can still learn them. How do you kind of see the balance between like talent and effort in having a growth mindset?

I think that if you have a growth mindset, you should almost not care about talent. Because to me, even the word talent has this kind of connotation to it that, you know, you say that some people have an innate talent, for example. And so having a growth mindset is really about thinking that effort matters much more than talent. And that whatever your natural talent, or maybe your lack of natural talent, in something doesn't really matter in the long term if you're willing to put the effort in.

Yeah.

And I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. Like, even if we do have kind of like varying levels of talent, like, if that is fixed, then like, there's no reason to kind of like spend your mental effort on it. Like, you want to kind of spend your mental effort on kind of the things that you can actually have an impact on.

Exactly.

And so then kind of jumping to the second part of that, the metacognition. Again, I kind of think it's like a balance of like being able to kind of go to those like higher levels of abstraction where you are kind of like thinking about thinking essentially, which is like what metacognition is. But then at the same time, like you have to actually get into that like creation process as well. So how do you kind of think about the balance between those two?

I think this is why writing is so important. In this approach because it's actually one of the very few things that you can do that will put you in both thinking and creative mode, which is great. And so I think this is, this is why, you know, I put such a big emphasis on writing because the goal is not to spend all of your time thinking about the methods and thinking about the way you learn. It's to really start doing and start learning. So this is why instead of having kind of like this passive thinking where you would just sit down and observe your thoughts, I think writing is much better because you never really get out of creative mode and it allows you to think about your own thinking and your own cognition, but still while being in this kind of like making and creative mode, basically.

And so then I think that kind of leads directly into the self-authorship aspect of it as well, because you are kind of like, you are creating as you're like thinking about it, I guess. Does that sound accurate?

Yeah, totally. That's, that's exactly that. And it's like self-authorship is also, you know, the idea that whatever the external factors or what's happening to you, what you decide to do and how you react is your own decision basically. So you can't necessarily control external factors, but you can control your reactions. So I think this is also why, you know, this, you know, writing and self-authorship is super important because it means that, you know, by writing you can kind of also control the narrative. And it really helps, especially in times where you feel like you're really struggling to progress, that it's really hard, basically by keeping on, on writing and by having this high sense of self-authorship, you still believe that you're in control, basically.

And so, I mean, it definitely sounds like writing for you is kind of the biggest way that you've found to kind of get in this, um, this mind frame, for lack of a better word. Um, do you think there are kind of other ways to approach that, or do you think writing is kind of the best way?

I think there's lots of, uh, you know, as I, you know, mentioned earlier, you could also do record videos if that's something you're more comfortable with. It's really more about reframing your thoughts in a way that can be communicated and that can, you know, it's really about getting these thoughts outside your mind and into the world basically. And personally, I'm much, much more comfortable with writing than I am with, you know, like verbal communication. So this is what works the best for me, but I think it works really well with whatever medium of communication you're most comfortable with. So if that's videos or if that's having a podcast, for example, that also works.

Awesome. And so I think like, um, at least kind of for me, that's like the basic structure of mindframing is so you're kind of like using this growth mindset, metacognition, and self-authorship to kind of get into the proper like headspace to do this kind of creative work. And then using the structure of PACT, Act, React, and Impact to kind of create some accountability for yourself, go through the learning process, and then kind of create after that, after that kind of initial smaller learning process. Is there kind of anything else that I'm missing or anything else that you would add to kind of the overall structure of it?

No, no, this is great. And it's the first time I'm hearing someone else talk about it already like this and explain it so well. So I'm very happy. Basically, it means that it's pretty clear.

Awesome.

Very cool. So one thing I wanted to kind of try for this episode, and it'll be the first one where we're kind of doing this because I did really want to do kind of that deeper dive into mindframing. I have a handful of other questions and I'd love to kind of just like jump through them and kind of get your thoughts overall. And so I guess kind of starting off since we've already talked about writing so much and I've been like very impressed by like the amount of content that you've consistently been able to create and like even more so like the quality of that content. And so I'm curious, what is your kind of writing process and how are you able to kind of create at that level so consistently?

I basically, I actually wrote a little bit about, you know, the way I manage my time because that's a question I get asked often. And to me, the most important thing is that I do block time for the things that are important to me. So there are things that, you know, if I do them, it's fine. I'm happy. But there are things that if at the end of the week I didn't do them, I will not feel great about myself. And it's not that many things. And, but one of them is writing. So I have time blocked every morning for writing. And I basically sit down, I have a note in Google Keep with all of my ideas that, you know, sometimes it's while reading another article. Sometimes it's while having a chat with a friend. My friends make fun of me because when we're having drinks, it will happen quite often that I just, I just interrupt the conversation. I'm like, oh, just give me 2 seconds. I need to write this down. So I have ideas all the time and I just write that down. And so I have them in my Google Keep. And so in the morning I sit down, open that, and I just look at the list and I think about what I would want to write about today. And sometimes I also take into account that the fact that maybe I don't have that much time that morning. Because, you know, I have a meeting or something that's kind of like cutting in the middle of my writing time, which doesn't happen very often, but when it does happen, maybe I will pick a topic that I'm already quite familiar with. So I know it's going to be quicker to write the article. And when I have a bit more time and I can go a little bit over even the time that I have booked, I'll pick something a little bit more challenging that I find intriguing, but that I know is going to take me more energy to research. And so, yeah, I do that. I write it, I reread it a couple of times to make sure that it all makes sense, there are no typos, and then I post it on Twitter and on Hacker News, and then I move on and work on other stuff.

And then you usually, kind of as we've already talked about, have like at least a couple references in every article. Do you have kind of like a way that you're able to like you can easily pull that stuff up as you're kind of like writing.

Yeah, I've become, because of my studies, I've become a bit of a Google Scholar ninja. So I'm really good. They did teach us at school how to read papers quickly, how to skim them, to see how relevant they were, how good they were, how solid they were by basically skimming the, you read the abstract, You go to the reference sections and then you skim the contents. And so only if you feel like that's relevant to what you're writing, then you actually read the paper. So that's how I go about it, but that's something I wasn't good at just a year ago. And this is definitely something that I picked up at uni for my master's in neuroscience.

And so then something we haven't really talked about, um, you spend a little time as a marketer at Google and then obviously a lot of what you're doing now could be considered marketing. What would you say is kind of the biggest thing that someone that maybe doesn't have the budget of Google to do to kind of like grow their audience or kind of like have effective marketing?

I think you already know the answer, but writing. Yeah, definitely writing. It's free. You don't need any tools or anything. Anyone can do it. And in any case, you know, yes, you're going to grow your audience and that's a very, very effective way to do it. But also you're just going to develop a skill that is going to be useful in every single area of your life. So yeah, for any person, whether indie maker, and even if they don't, even if they do have a big budget, I think that's one of the most effective marketing tools that you can use and that is also something that's good for you as an individual.

And then I'm curious, so like for me at least, the majority of my income comes through client work, but I would say that I spend the majority of my time on kind of other podcasts, on like other projects like this podcast or the course. How does that kind of like breakdown of your time and your income look for you?

Yeah, that's very similar. I suspect that that's the case for lots of indie entrepreneurs and creatives and freelancers. And obviously the goal is to, you know, revert this, uh, in the sense that I would love to spend less time on client work and, and make more money from my projects. Uh, at the time I'm spending probably a day a week working for clients and that's probably something like 80% of my income. So yeah, that's, that's what it looks like right now. And in the future, I would love to basically, you know, keep on spending 80% of my time on my projects, but I would love for it to bring 80% of my income.

Yeah. And that sounds very similar to me as well. Kind of looking through some of the stuff that you've done, like outside of kind of the indie maker space. We've talked a little bit about how grad school has kind of impacted your work. I'm curious how other things, like I saw you went to Burning Man a couple years ago, which I went in 2014 and it definitely impacted my time, but also like some of the other traveling you've done. How has some of those outside things impacted your career?

Amazing, you're a fellow Burner. I'm going to go back next year, but I missed it. This year because I had too much going on. Burning Man has definitely had a big impact on my life. My parents got married there 2 years ago and it was an amazing experience. Yeah. It was great to be at, you know, my own parents' wedding. That was really fun. Yeah. Some of the things that I've learned at Burning Man Burning Man, not necessarily like things that I learned there in the sense that it was the very first time I heard about them or used them, but it really crystallized them, was, you know, being part of a community and giving before expecting to receive anything in return. And this is really how I've been approaching behaving inside of communities, which is something, you know, I started going at Burning Man also in 2014 and I went almost every year. Since then. And it's just fantastic to see what people can build together when everyone makes the effort to contribute without having any agenda, basically. And so I've also noticed this in most of the communities I'm a part of, they're functional communities, is just, you know, a lot of people are very, very, very generous in these. And this is, I think, the essence of what makes these communities work. So that's one thing. And the other one too, it's just about creativity in general. There's nothing at Burning Man that is considered too weird, too strange, too out of this world. And whatever you want to work on and whatever you want to create, whatever is in your mind that you want to put out there, it's completely fine. And people are going to encourage you to do this. So this is also something that I bring back with me every time I go. I tend now to, every time I have an idea that I'm interested about, I used to basically think about the outcomes first. So how is this going to be received? And does that actually make sense in the overall narrative that I'm building around myself? And I don't really do this anymore. And this is also why people are very often confused with As to what I do, this is one of the first questions that I get asked usually when I do podcast interviews is, can you just clarify what do you do? Because I do a lot of different things and I think that's fine. And this is also something that I got out of Burning Man, not trying to define myself, not having like this, you know, super simple tagline or elevator pitch to define who I am and what I work on.

Well, and I mean, that's been like almost my exact experience as well was, um, I was like working full-time in the Bay. And kind of went like shortly after that, as I was already kind of like disillusioned of the whole like full-time in-house thing. And since then have kind of gone on to do like ski instructing and hiking guiding and then like obviously all of still kind of like this stuff as well. But yeah, just like being able to kind of like create without like the expectations of what's going to come from it. I feel like kind of lets you do the most creative work that you can do. And then like—

I agree.

It's more likely to kind of turn into something because you don't have those expectations.

Definitely. Yeah, totally agree with you.

And so then in a previous interview, you mentioned that you want to build a zebra business rather than like maybe a unicorn business. So what would you say is a zebra business and why is that what you're looking to build?

To me, a zebra business is really all about building a sustainable business. So unicorns are all about growth, sometimes at all costs. And this is why you have many unicorns, unicorns that are actually not profitable. And while I think that the traditional startup approach can work for certain types of businesses, especially when it comes to deep tech and the type of companies where the product you build are so innovative that it does make sense that you're not going to make money for a while because you're spending everything in research and development. But outside of these exceptions, they should be called unicorns because they're very rare. I think lots of the other unicorns don't really deserve that title because what people have been really good at mostly is just raising a shit ton of money without actually creating any value. And so this is what to me a zebra business is about, is about creating value first, about being sustainable, being profitable, and really putting the emphasis on building something that actually makes the world a better place rather than building something where the goal is just to have a quick exit or make a lot of money. And that's big enough to be in TechCrunch, basically. So yeah, smaller, more sustainable, and with values that I feel more aligned with than the ones that several unicorns have.

That's great. And I think that's like a lot of what both me and a lot of the folks listening to this are trying to do as well. So very cool to kind of hear that description. And so to kind of wrap it up, I'm curious, kind of based on what we've talked about today, based on how kind of you structure your own business, how do you kind of define latitude both like in your personal life and in your business?

Yeah, I think, uh, I really like the word latitude actually and how you're, you're using it for, for the podcast, but I think to me it's going beyond the kind of like old traditional concept of work-life balance and to design your life in a way where your work actually helps you grow and where your life also helps you grow your business. And I think it's completely fine if all of these are completely intertwined in a way where every day you wake up and you have stuff you're excited to work on. So to me, this is what having latitude in your life is about.

Awesome. Thank you so much. And then I guess to kind of wrap things up, if folks are interested to kind of learn more about what you're doing, some of the projects you're working on, where would you recommend they go to check that out?

I think the best place is my website, neslabs.com, and it has all of the links to my Twitter, etc., where I post more daily updates.

All right, awesome.

Anne-Laure, thank you so much for being on the podcast, um, and really excited to kind of learn a little more about mindframing and then like some of the other work you do as well.

Thanks so much for having me.

Thanks for tuning in. So here's how Latitude works. It's the full interview you just finished listening to, then next time I'll break down on some of the topics and themes we just discussed. This short, focused, and extremely actionable episode goes even deeper into some of what we've covered today. Make sure to hit subscribe to get that and other upcoming interviews. This is also the part of the show where I'm supposed to ask you to rate and review the podcast. Instead, I want to make you a little more actionable about applying some of the things we've talked about today. So send a tweet, message, email, or carrier pigeon to a friend about the one thing you learned and how apply it to your business this week, or send it to me on Twitter @ZavZen. Links and more are in the show notes at createlatitude.com/podcast. And I just want to remind you that you already have the tools you need to create a little more latitude in your day, your business, and your life.