Want to Develop a Growth Mindset? Try Growth Loops With Anne-Laure Le Cunff

It's common to reach a place in your career where you wonder what's next, whether you were urgently forced into that spot like a layoff, or your stage of life has changed and you're also ready for a change. But many of us struggle with this answer because it's common to see progress as linear. When thinking about success, many people imagine a ladder or stairs going up. And how do you go up with the ladder when what you're actually looking for is a whole new house? To help us make sense of figuring out what's your next step in your career path is Anne-Laure Le Cunff. A PhD researcher investigating the neuroscience of learning and education, and the founder of Nest Labs, where she writes about mindful productivity and creativity. Anne-Laure, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

I told you before we got on that I'm a huge fangirl of everything you're doing at Nest Labs. And so I want you to first, like, also tell people what that is. They might not be familiar, but you actually have a really interesting career path. Which makes you probably a perfect person to be talking about this. So can you share what your path has been like to becoming the founder of Nest Labs and also make sure to explain what Nest Labs is in case someone hasn't heard of it?

Yeah, absolutely. I had a very nonlinear path. I started in a very traditional way, went to school, university, studied business, and then I started working at Google. I was in marketing there and I started in my first job in London and then moved to San Francisco, stayed there for a couple of years. There in my last job, I was working with the digital health team on products like Google Fit, which is the equivalent of Apple Health for Google and Android phones. And, um, what is it called now? I think they've renamed it. Wear OS, which is the equivalent of the Apple Watch, but for Android as well. So that was my last job there. And after a while, I figured that I had to go on to my next step. The logical one when you worked in Silicon Valley was to just leave the big tech company that you were working at and to move on to a startup, preferably your own.

Yes.

Um, I remember at the time I was reading all of the blog posts on Y Combinator. I was, you know, just like, I read The Lean Startup. I read all of the books and I followed the recipe that I thought was the recipe for success. So I found a co-founder. We started raising money. I had an idea that was an idea I thought would change the world, helping people manage their diabetes, which was something I really cared about because both my mom and my grandma were diabetic, something big in the health sector, just, you know, everything you're supposed to do when you work.

Yeah, you checked all the boxes, right?

Yes. And I failed. It didn't work out at all. Um, I, you know, we didn't have the same vision at all with my co-founder. We, we were not in it for, for the same reasons. Uh, we didn't align at all in terms of the product, et cetera. So it apparently it is the case that a vast majority of startups don't work out because the co-founders breakup. And so that's, that's what happened to me. And then I was completely lost when I realized that that didn't work out, that my next logical step on that ladder of success that I had dutifully followed for the entirety of my life, when that next step was unclear, I, I really didn't know what to do. So I asked myself, what is one thing that you would be interested in even if money was out of the equation, even if that whole idea of success was out of the equation. Just something that you would be excited to wake up in the morning and learn about. And for me, that's always been the brain, the mind, how it works, why we think the way we think, we feel the way we think, we feel, etc. So I went back to school to study neuroscience, went back to university, and I did first a master's degree there. And this is when I started writing online. So you mentioned, thank you, that I write about mindful productivity and creativity at MESS Labs. It all started because I was a student in neuroscience and I learned about the generation effect, the idea that by creating your own version of something that you're studying, you're going to both understand it and remember it better. So I created a blog and a newsletter to put that into practice. That was NessLabs. And it grew pretty quickly, which was not really the plan. And for the first time in my career, I was quite successful when I had not really planned on doing anything that was professionally successful. I had read no books. I had applied no framework. I just followed my curiosity. I just asked questions. I kept on experimenting. And that was the birth of NestLabs. So it's a bit meta, but I started also writing about that. And since then, the community has grown quite a bit. Um, we have thousands of members in our private community, uh, dozens of thousands of people reading the newsletter. I have a team now. And, uh, yeah, it's not the startup that I had dreamed of when I was younger, but I think I'm much happier.

Yes. And just to, so people know, I'm a subscriber of your newsletter and it's all mindful productivity tips, articles, really well written, really well researched. And, um, there's no shame. They're not telling us to hustle harder. You know, there's none of that, which I think is also important on top of, you You know, I'm sure that's why your community is doing so well. So we're here today because we wanna talk about reinventing our careers and really figuring out the right career path. Obviously you kind of maybe accidentally fell into it, but like, and before you, you were probably almost like too planned out with it. But talk to us about the difference between linear growth and circular growth and, and why, you know, why do we all love linear growth so much?

Yes, so I think the example I just gave you actually is, yeah, it really shows the difference between linear and circular growth. So when you're in a linear model of career building, you are trying to design your career path in a way that is predictable. And the reason why we like it is because it's reassuring. We know what's coming next. There's no uncertainty, or at least there's the illusion of absence of uncertainty. And because of that, we just feel like we're doing everything right. We're following the codes, etc., right? It's also a big part of it also is because we are following the signals of what we see around us. And because we've been taught since we've been in school that these are the specific steps that you're supposed to follow and this is what success looks like, whether it's in the movies that we watch or whether it's or what our parents are telling us, our teachers are telling us, there is a very clear definition of what success looks like. And it has all of these default definitions, whether it's money or authority or a certain level of expertise in, you know, in very specific areas. And so we follow that because that's what we've been doing our whole life. It's predictable. We know what's next. And it just, it's very reassuring to know that if we do these things, then we're going to get the recognition and the stability that, you know, is to be expected when you follow that equation. In contrast, circular growth is based on the idea that you really don't know what you're doing, and that's completely normal because you are building your life as you go. You can't just follow a step-by-step recipe that is going to give you a specific outcome. Every life is different, and it would actually be very sad if you could predict exactly what was going to happen, where you would be in 5 years. Which by the way is a very popular question in traditional management. Where do you see yourself in 5 years, right?

Yes, totally. Yes.

How depressing is that? If you could answer that question, it's a little bit like, you know, someone spoiling a movie for you. Just why would you want to go and watch that movie if you already know what's going to happen in the end? So circular growth in contrast is all based on experimentation, embracing that uncertainty, knowing that you don't know what's next and that's okay. The only thing you can do is choose your next action, your next move, and then reflect on what's working, what's not working, and what you want to tweak next. And it's believing and really trusting that process that growth is going to emerge naturally as the, you know, as you iterate basically on your career versus trying to follow a step-by-step plan.

Yeah. Marie Forleo has a famous quote that clarity comes from engagement, not thought, right? And when you talked, when you were explaining linear versus circular, I was thinking, I think the linear thing also comes from school because school is so linear. You know, you go great, you literally move up grade by grade, right? And then also at high school, you go to college, you know, and I always felt this way too. It was like, it was such a formula. And for majority of your life, you're following this formula really well. And then real life doesn't work like that. And so it is certainly a major struggle to sort of be like, wait, this is the first like unscheduled portion of my life when you graduate. But then also later on you have these, I mean, there are certainly people who also like fall into careers careers, you know, like maybe they met someone at the career fair or someone, you know, a lot of careers sort of just happen. And then what happens when people are like, but now I want to make a change and I've never had to be really purposeful about that, so how do I go about it? Um, I agree with your advice on the circular. I could see someone also having the struggle of like, I want to do that, but how do I do that? Like, how do I take my mind out of this and not overthink it, right? Because when you want something really bad, I think then you just start to think about it a lot. Um, So what are the tips on how to take this circular model into our real lives of like, I want to switch my career. I don't know what that is. How do I get okay with that and kind of like go through the motions and let it happen to me versus trying to over-control it all?

I think you don't have to necessarily be completely passive and go through the motions, but you do have to accept the fact that there are a lot of factors you have no control over. So instead of trying to control the entire narrative and to write this perfectly coherent story about your career, just focus on each mini chapter basically and just say, okay, what do I want to happen in this chapter? And that is an experiment that you can conduct. So for example, if you're currently employed in a full-time job and you're wondering if freelancing would be for you, don't just quit your job and start freelancing. This is very dangerous advice that you hear some people say, like, just quit, quit your job and go and do this. Very often advice that is given by people who are men, white, and quite young with no kids, no mortgages, no loans, etc. And where— and very often who also have a support network where if everything goes wrong, they can actually go back to their parents. That's not the case of most people. And so I think it's dangerous advice. Instead, ask yourself, okay, what would be a good experiment? What could be a little chapter that I could write here to see if I like freelancing. And so maybe do it on the side, just ask people around you. I don't know if like, if it's design, for example, maybe you have a friend who has a restaurant, ask them, can I freelance for you and redesign your branding for the restaurant? And just finding a little project to experiment with. Really commit to it. This is really important because there is no way you're going to know if this is working for you or not. And that could be an interesting career path for you in the future if you're not taking it seriously. So it's both playful and exploratory and following your curiosity, but once you've decided that you're going to perform this experiment, you do it very seriously. And then the last part is reflecting. If you just keep on doing it and repeating the same thing, you're not going to learn anything from the experiment. So self-reflection could look like writing, journaling, et cetera. Lots of people struggle with building a journaling habit. So it could also be just like a weekly coffee with a friend and catching up and just debriefing together, whatever that reflection looks like. It just needs to be embedded in that loop and So you have that circular growth happening.

Yeah. And that's probably what you meant. You have, um, a phrase, single loop learning versus, I think it's double loop learning, right? So is that what you're getting at? Like if you just repeat the same cycle over and over again, that single loop, you don't actually learn anything versus you have to have that reflection piece in there. That's that double loop, right?

Exactly. And so single loops are great for things like habits, for example. So, so it's something where, you know, you want to do it, you know, it works. You just need to stick to it. And whenever you don't do it, then that's completely fine. And, you know, you just, you're like, okay, let's get back on it and let's just do it. Uh, you know, James Clear is never miss twice, right? But it is all about repeating exactly the same thing over and over again. Whereas double loop is, has more of this meta approach to it where you go through one loop and then you have a loop of reflection. Basically, you observe what happened. You ask yourself, did that work? Did that, what didn't work? What do I want to change? And then your next loop should look a little bit different. You tweak a little something. It's very similar to a chef who's cooking. Add a little bit of spice, remove something. You just taste it every time. That's your double loop.

Yeah, I, I love that. And I think your point about the, the reflection part is really important. Now, if journaling isn't your thing, find a friend, find someone that you can schedule the time. The point being is that it's very purposeful, right? You're not just sort of randomly bringing it up in a conversation. It's like we're getting coffee to talk about this thing. And it would be awesome. I've always been a huge fan of accountability partners. I've told this story probably a few times on this podcast, so if you've heard this before, bear with me. But when I was first starting Career Contessa, I had a friend who was also starting a business, and every other Friday, so every 2 weeks, we would have a call and we would just share, like, what are you going through? What are your challenges? And even now I have people who I they're more— it's more like business people who are in similar businesses, but we keep each other accountable of like, what's one thing you want to work on? What's one thing you're working on? Your vents, your wins, you know? And I think there's that piece of being purposeful with your reflection is to your point, it's like reflect and then the next loop has to be a little bit different, right? And that's how you do gradually make that progress. And that's the difference between circular and linear is linear. I feel like you just want to go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. You know, you really— you don't want any, um, anything that is like hard or complicated or unclear. No gray zone. What— I mean, what do you think, especially with like the brain? Like, does the brain just not like when we come up against challenges? Like, why is it so hard, you know, for people to have these like tough moments and kind of like sit in the pocket a little longer and like move You know, move with the discomfort.

Yeah, um, actually has a name and obviously right now I'm not saying, I think it's called the effort paradox or something like this. Um, but it is a phenomenon that is really interesting is that we love the idea of effort, but we don't love, we don't like actually doing it, like going through it. And this is one of the reasons why people give themselves those crazy challenges or crazy New Year resolutions, because the idea of it. They feel like if they do something very difficult, they're going to be more accomplished. But then obviously when comes the time to actually do it, then we, you know, we don't, we don't want it. The reason why we're struggling so much is because conserving energy is actually a very simple survival mechanism. So we're always going to try and find the path of least resistance. And that's just, you know, every single animal does this. You don't really see animals making extra effort just for the sake of it. One of the only situations where you would find it, outside of obviously, you know, trying to get food or doing extra things, but there's no practical reason, is play, to have fun when there's a bit of competition with people. But then again, if you go to the next layer of what play is for, it's for learning, actually. It's for bonding. It's for all of these things. So there's really no effort that we exert that doesn't have an aim or an objective behind it, even when it's unconscious. And then there's the other aspect, which is uncertainty, like not really knowing what to do and being lost, etc. And again, our brain loves patterns. This is how we survive, by understanding, understanding the world, by making connections, etc. And so whenever there's a gap, whenever we don't really know what's going on, we freak out because we— it just— it says danger. Not knowing what's going to happen next. Next means danger. And very often, a lot of these perceived dangers that, that we feel that were very helpful when we were still living in different environments, um, still persist to these days, even if they're not as useful in that, our current environment. And so sometimes it does take a little bit of work and a little bit of, of, you know, mindfulness and being thoughtful and really being in touch with your thoughts and your emotions to try and override those automatic patterns.

Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that a few times on this podcast that like your patterns are very set and like you have to work very hard to reset them, but it's totally worth it, especially if like you don't wanna stay where you are and you wanna do something different. Like that is a reset of a pattern, right? We have to, we have to redo that. Okay. So pulling it back to these growth loops, how does a growth loop actually get you to the next stage or help you make decisions in your career? What's, what, What's it with our ultimate, you know, we've done the reflection, now we're making some changes. So how does that get us to different decisions and different stages in our career?

Yeah. And so that's the whole idea is that if you do this, they should very rarely be very big, scary decisions because you keep on tweaking things as you go.

Yeah.

So you avoid what I did, which was with zero self-reflection. Just following a step-by-step recipe, quitting my job and, and starting a startup only to realize that it really wasn't for me. And so since then, a lot of the things that I'm doing— so I started a PhD, for example. I decided to just try it for one semester and I was just like, okay, let's just see what that looks like. I'm currently writing a book and I also broke it down into little experiments. I was like, well, let's just write the proposal. Yeah, just write the proposal and let's not commit to anything else. I'm not going to commit to writing a book yet. I'm just going to commit to writing the proposal. And if after writing that proposal, I'm still excited, let's see what the next loop looks like. So the way those growth groups work is that you are every time committing to only the next pact that you're making with yourself, just saying that that's the experiment that I'm going to do. And then at the end of each loop, you make the decision of continuing or maybe Making it bigger and more ambitious or completely abandoning that experiment because that wasn't for you. When you add up all of those conscious decisions that you're making and all of this practical experimentation, when you're really turning your life into a laboratory like this, you are going to see success over the long term, but it's going to be more the kind of success where you look back a few years back. It's not like right now asking you, where are you going to be in 5 years? It's more looking back 5 years and, and just noticing all of your progress and feeling like, well, I can't believe that's where I am right now.

Right.

I would have not imagined that. I would have not been able to imagine that. And this is success.

Yeah, I love that. It's a good reminder to, to like, yes, you want to look forward, but not too far forward, but really a big piece of like slowly moving forward is like you got to go back. You know, it's like two steps back, one step forward, two steps back, one step forward, which it sounds like you're not making progress, but like you will over time, you know, you will get to where you're— where you want to go. What about people who are dealing with like career indecisiveness? Like they've got two job offers or they could do this or they could do that. I mean, similar to you where you're like, it wasn't my best decision to just quit my job at Hulu and do the startup. Like, What happens when you are being faced with these big, big maybe opportunities and you're really indecisive about what to do?

Very often in these cases, you have to remember that we are also evolved to be social animals and that when you're stuck, asking for help is really one of the best things that you can do. And again, that's why when I was talking about the reflection aspect, there is obviously introspection, which is an amazing form of reflection, but Talking to a friend, talking to a trusted mentor, or, you know, a coach, a colleague that you're super close with, etc., to your partner, um, just opening up the floor basically and asking those questions to people you trust can be incredibly helpful. It will not remove all of the fear around big decisions. Big decisions are scary and this is just, you know, the case. And, and I don't think there's any framework that is ever going to remove the and tired, you know, all of the anxiety that comes with making a jump. And I also think that we should not resist making a jump completely. So it's not because iteration is really good and the practical way to make progress in life that when you have those big opportunities, sometimes just taking it is the best thing to do. You will have no way of knowing, uh, without doing it. You just have to remember that If you do things in a way that is quite sensible, like you don't go completely crazy, there are actually in your career very few things that you could do that would really damage your career. Our careers are a lot more resilient than what we think. So as long as financially speaking, you're not taking a risk that is completely, you know, that would put you in danger, in actual danger, then you can really try things. You can quit your job. You can go and work for a a company that is in a completely different industry. You can do these things if that's what's calling you. And if really that's not working for you, you know, you can find another job. You can go back to the big corporation that you left. Very often people don't realize that the dangers that they imagine are a lot smaller than they really are when it comes to their jobs.

Yeah, that's a really good point. And, you know, there's, there's the person who never makes the move because they're afraid. Of making any change. And then there's the person who's making so many changes that they never stay long enough to have any real growth or make any real traction. And I would say this is like in most things in life, these extremes don't work super well. It's like finding some place in the middle where it's like maybe you don't jump at every single opportunity that comes your way. I'm sure you had opportunities to start a startup before you left Google, but like timing is important with all that stuff too. I think asking for help and also to your point of like I remember when I was leaving my job at Hulu to run Career Contessa, I was like, okay, what's my plan B, right? Like, if this doesn't work out, I could go be a recruiter at a slew of other companies. Like, it was a skill set. I think it would help me with the career indecisiveness was like being really clear on my skill set. And that would be another thing I would, I would encourage people with these like growth loops. If you're thinking like, what do I make my growth loop about? Like, skills are a really good area to focus on. Like, so what skills do you need to focus on? You were, you were mentioning You know, like really committing to like if you want to do freelancing, like really committing to doing the design work and not being a flake as a freelancer. Or I'm thinking I've had people tell me like, oh, I want to become a project manager and they'll start to take these certificates and then they don't finish them. So, you know, if you're wondering what should my growth loop be about, I think skills is a really good place to start. What else have you seen people start with when they think about, okay, I want to make a growth loop? Is it like what, what's my growth loop going to be focused on?

Uh, it can be people also. Sometimes you're just very curious to know if working with a specific person could be interesting. And so, and, and this is really common actually, kind of like left field kind of opportunity that you didn't expect where someone you used to work with contacts you and say, yeah, hey, we have this opportunity. I'd love to work with you. So people can be one, like that's actually something that's really good to learn at the end of it, even if you decide to not keep going that way for your next loop, knowing if it's good or not to work with these people. So yeah, as you say, skills, also industry knowledge sometimes can be very interesting. So, or, and, or even just areas of like contributions in general, like I have quite a few friends who left Google, for example, to work in climate change. And so the, the skills that they have are not really going to change. Like they're, you know, either engineers or they're business developers, et cetera. But they're very curious about that whole new area of knowledge that they don't have yet. They're just very curious and passionate. So those are some of the ones that could be good guides in terms of what you could get out of a growth group, even if the growth group itself doesn't have the outcome that you expected.

Right, right. But your growth group could focus on learning about industry, learning, you know, networking with people. I love informational interviews. It's how I figured out how to transition careers. And skills. I think those are 3 really good parts. And then those will also help you. Just remember everybody, as you're doing more growth lists, you're gonna reflect and you'll, you'll turn those growth loops into other things. Well, I can't let you go without asking you about, since you run a mindful productivity website, um, myths about mindful productivity. What, what are the biggest productivity myths that just really, you know, you're like, no, why does everyone keep saying that? They need to stop.

Um, I, uh, I think I have a very big pet peeve against time blocking, uh, because I just see everyone blocking their time and then ignoring it.

Yeah.

I, very few people and the people for who it works, say I'm so happy for them and this is great, but really I've worked with enough people to see that this is a minority. Um, and so I think what is more helpful. Is to keep as much space as possible in your calendar that is free for when you feel inspired to work on, on a specific project. And so you don't have all of those back-to-back meetings, etc. So keeping your calendar as free as possible as an alternative to blocking time for absolutely everything. Again, actually, I never thought about it this way, but I think time blocking is a very linear way of thinking about your time because you think that you can know in advance what exactly is going to make sense to do at a specific time. Whereas the other way of doing it is just at moment to moment knowing what is the thing that you should be working on right now. And at the end of the day, you can reflect again on what worked and what didn't, what could have maybe benefited from having a little bit more time, etc., just so you can react in a better way moving forward.

Yeah, I love that. Um, because you kind of have to go where your energy goes, right? Like your energy at 9 AM might not be what you thought it was going to be when you made that to-do list. That's a really good tip. Okay. And lastly, are there any weekly or daily rituals that you live by? I mean, obviously you run a company, you're writing a book, you know, you probably have to have a little bit of ritual or routines that you have to— that you— that you enjoy.

I would say for me, it's daily journaling every morning with my cup of coffee. I don't touch any device. I don't touch my computer. I do none of that before I have written in my journal. Sometimes it's 2 lines, sometimes it's pages. It doesn't matter. Where I sit down with my cup of coffee and I journal, and it's really the ritual that keeps me grounded where I can have this check-in with myself. Um, I'm, as you said, I have so many projects that I absolutely love. I'm working quite a bit and it would be very easy to do all of that on autopilot and to not notice when I'm struggling. And there are times where after journaling in the morning, I ended up clearing my calendar for the day and just taking a break because I noticed that I was starting to burn out, and I don't think I would have noticed if I didn't have that practice of mindfulness through journaling every morning. So that's my ritual.

I really like that. I think about— I haven't started. I want to do something like that. I have kids, so they like wake me up before I could even potentially even think about waking up to journal. But maybe something like, you know, when I first thing I do when I sit down at my desk to work is I start with journaling because there are days where you wake up and you have a lot of energy and it's like, why do you have the energy? Or some days you wake up and you're like super anxious or you sit down at your desk and you're feeling really anxious and it would be really nice to have an outlet like that that also would give you kind of like a pulse check on what maybe the rest of your day is going to feel like, right? So I think that's, I mean, I can totally see your point about like sometimes I journal and like I have to clear the rest of my day, but I wouldn't know to do that otherwise you would've just grinded through the day, right? And that's a really good observation. Anne-Laure, these are amazing tips. I hope people really enjoy utilizing growth loops and understand, especially just like if nothing else, like, can we just truly try to walk away from this linear success obsession and really adapt more of the circular for growth? What else? Like, where should people find you? Where else can they hunt you down for tips and tricks? Tell us all the sites and the links.

Yeah, you just go to nesslabs.com, uh, N-E-S-S-L-A-B-S.com, and my newsletter is there at the top of the page. You can just enter your email and I send a weekly email every Thursday with tips just like the ones we just discussed today.

And like I said, you guys, I'm a longtime subscriber. It's really good. I'll put it also in the show notes. Thank you.

Thank you so much.